Immigrant women run into language barrier

Language schools are failing to teach Danish to women with an immigrant background causing issues with the integration process

A new study carried out by the Rockwool Foundation has revealed that a fifth of immigrant women who take Danish classes fail to finish their course and take exams.

Marie Louise Schultz-Nielsen, a researcher at the Rockwool Foundation, called the women’s inability to finish their studies ‘deeply worrying.’

‘It is not encouraging for the integration process that so many women are unable to take an active role in Danish society,’ she said.

Geert Laier Christensen, the former head of liberal think-tank CEPOS, told Berlingske Tidende newspaper: ‘We have a large group of isolated women who are costing our society a lot of money. At the same time, this will affect the next generation of immigrants if their mothers cannot be integrated because they lack language skills.’

Comments

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magic1964 - Why women only ?

|2010-06-21 19:06:20

Why women only ? let me guess.....maybe it has to do with culture or religion ?? but who cares, we pay high taxes so YES WE CAN .....

Nebbiolo

|2010-06-22 14:30:02

Yes, well having been to a Danish language school myself, I can confirm that the teaching is awful and very often culturally insensitive. I'm not surprised 25% don't finish. And of the ones that do finish, their Danish is often extremely poor.

You try learning a language under those conditions. There isn't even a target language like English to Danish or Turkish to Danish. Lessons are conducted entirely in Danish. So if you don't speak the language, isn't going to take months to even grasp the basics.

Some people (like those from Burma) don't even have access to a Burmese to Danish dictionary (it doesn't exist). They bring Burmese to English, then use English to Danish after that.

It's a joke, extremely unprofessional, there appears to be no monitoring of the teachers by the authorities, the students are never canvassed as to their opinion. Yet it continues.

What a waste of time, money and talent.

kagemedchutzpah

|2010-06-22 15:11:13

I can think of a few reasons why women moreso than men are the ones who don't finish or take their exams:

1. Women are the ones who get pregnant and give birth.

2. Women are usually the ones who spend the most time on maternity leave.

3. Women are typically the ones who are expected (even in our 'equal' society) to take time off of school/work when said child is sick or otherwise needs a parent.

As a father of four, I'll admit; I probably didn't split those 'child needs a parent' days as equally as I possibly could have with my wife and I certainly didn't take any time off work when they were babies.

magic1964

|2010-06-22 16:31:17

But this does not necessarily affect the next generation of immigrants if their mothers cannot be integrated because they lack language skills. Why???? Because
It´s a matter of personal choice to work a bit harder to overcome this situation. So many kids with immigrants background make it and it´s just some specifics type of second generetion immigrants who have problem in spite of all helps they get from the state....

Y. B. Danish - I would hope

|2010-06-23 00:39:35

Without more information, I would say it seems people, Rockwool and the speaker who was formerly of a so-called "think tank", as well as some of the people commenting here . . . . that people are judging based on very little information. But maybe its out there and simply not i ncluded in CphPost´s article?

My first thought was. okay, so, Why? Assuming the accuracy of the one conclusion, that women are not completing Danish classes satisfactorily . . . why is that the case?

Is it b cause of babies? Well, look at the ages involved, the parental status (single, married, working . . ) - this article doesn´t report that information, and maybe it wasn´t in the Rockwell report. (Btw, why is a multi-national materials corporation doing this research anyway?)

IS it cultural?

How about, are there different expectations held by the teachers, adn the testers? One would expect the answer to be a yes, based on expecation studies done in the U.S. over the last 50 years. Does that effect their teaching? Student reactions? Testers analyses? Perhaps expectations are too low, and the 25% of people referred to are simply meeting expectations.

Are there issues at home such that women may be socially or privately punished (physically, with words, or by ostraticaztion (intentional isolation imposed by others)?

And what about the quality of the education being provided? My education the danish language was poor, and got worse, before it got better in the very end, when I presented the school with my own lesson plan and said I wanted a teacher who would work with me to achieve the results I sought (which were based on the vejledning from the government TO the schools themselves . . . in other words, I designed my own curriculum and plan because the school and its instructors had no box to put me in and so moved me around constantly). The local kommuna have since stopped using this school for language courses, however, there were no adjustments to the expectations and demands made of me, or anyone else who tried learn from through this school.

The governments own demands could, specifically, lead to problems. They promote certain expectations that are not always appropriate. For example, people who are educated should be in their module 3. And people in module 3 are expected to breeze through their more demanding program at a faster rate than people who are in less demanding modules. There is no consideration given to whether there are intervening factors such as age, health, handicap, work, that may make the fast track less fast - and which would require more time not just to do the work, but also, to receive and understand what is taught. . .
At the same time, it is possible that some people (and perhaps they can be grouped by gender or otherwise) start out motivated and then feel, along the way, that they are doomed no matter what they do, learn, learn to a high level, or not. In other words, damned if they do and damned if they don´t. This could be because their success is not supported at home; it could be because they feel no matter what they will not be able to get further educated (i.e. one has to pass the studieprøve to go to college/university - meaning one has first to pass through module 3 which may seem to be unachievable), or maybe they feel they don´t need to learn danish in order to talk to the horses behinds they clean up after horses, or children or customers somewhere because these are the jobs that invandrer (of all levels) are expected by the government to do.

One definition I read, long ago, for depression, is "learned helplessness". There are many ways to get to this point.

My suggestion is that anyone, or any organization, wishing to draw conclusions from this "research" promote further research, using methods intented to rule out false answers and poor deductions, into the cause for the problem - and that they be OPEN to what the results may show. That´s the only way to make it meaningful/useful.

Since, what other purpose could it possibly have?

kagemedchutzpah - Nebbiolo-

|2010-06-23 08:02:23

Yes, I agree with your assessment of Danish language courses. I remember my own with disdain.

magic1964 - kagemedchutzpah

|2010-06-23 10:35:44

1." Women are the ones who get pregnant and give birth".
2. "Women are usually the ones who spend the most time on maternity leave".

So maybe those women should first focus on learning some Danish and get into work before they start having any kids !!!! The Danish welfare make people irresponsible since they get everything for free....and who pay?? the one who are responsible and work hard.....

JFD - My language school experience was...

|2010-06-23 11:22:22

... "godt nok".

Contrary to others' experiences, I found the teachers to be dedicated and professional at SprogcenterMidt. Yes, the courses need to aggregate people from many, many diverse cultural, linguistic and educational backgrounds and therefore tend to be very general, but there isn't much that can be done about that practically & economically speaking.

I was just frustrated that the school put too much focus on teaching us about Danish society rather than (its actual purpose of) the Danish language. We would discuss topics such as democracy, welfare, crime, blah blah blah for hours and never touch on the more plex parts of grammer, pronunciation, etc. Therefore, I can tell you all about our welfare system, but can't write a gramatically correct sentence any more accurately than my 6-year old son.

I felt more like I was in integration school than language school. Maybe this is a factor in the published results of the article. Whatever, but to focus on the positive, I only paid 2.000 kr out-of-pocket (OK, technically my employer paid it for me) for a full year of classes so the cost was reasonable.

tomnashdk

|2010-06-23 13:17:56

My own experience with Danish language schools was also very poor. The teachers were just teaching Danish as a second job to make ends meet, and they had very little motivation. The classes were out of control with immigrant friends chatting with each other in their own languages while some of us were trying to learn Danish. To top it all off, I was in Sales and Marketing and travelling all over the world trying to sell Danish products to other countries, so I had to struggle to make it to classes. The Kommune expected me to be in class 85% of the time. I was not even in Denmark 50% of the time. The solution the school came up with was for me to adjust my travel schedule to make it to class every Monday, and then send my Danish wife to my Thursday class to pick up my homework. The language school promised me they would lie to the Kommune about my actual attendance.

I finally convinced my company to hire a private teacher who would work around my travel schedule.

The language school system is geared towards refugees who have loads of time on their hands, not normal working people who have families to take care of and demanding jobs. It is just one more instance of DK not bothering to think and treating all foreigners the same regardless of circumstances.

magic1964

|2010-06-24 06:35:00

But many of those women are not really interested into learning Danish......they rather stay home and make kids.

kagemedchutzpah

|2010-06-24 15:04:25

Back when I was in language school, the vast majority of people in my class were either employed or trying to become employed, regardless of gender. There were (I think) twenty of us in the class and of those twenty, only three of us were male (myself included in that.)

Those who were not yet currently employed often stayed after class was finished to try and ask the instructor for help in translating parts of their CV into Danish, writing a cover letter and other such practical matters.

One of the ladies from my class wound up hiring my wife to help with her handbag business, of all things (she designs them herself, sews them by hand and sells them by custom order.) Even though she's Irani, she accepts that we are a Jewish family and has no problem with my wife working a schedule that fits with Shabbat and our holidays. It's been a good solution.

The quality of Danish language education we all received, however, was exceptionally poor. Instructors came and went like the wind. There was no actual lesson plan. Work was rarely collected or corrected. Help was hard to come by. Complaining to the school or to the kommune got me nowhere. Eventually, I decided to go with a private teacher. I had no other choice, as I needed to learn Danish.

It was difficult to keep motivated while attending class because it was obvious the instructors did not care whether or not any of us progressed in our education or improved in our skill.

Heidi aka MissFuzzy

|2010-06-24 17:45:47

Now, magic, I am having an extremely hard time imagining that you have ever had a conversation with these bad immigrant types you so revile!

Personally when I studied at KISS, I found the women from Middle Eastern countries to be very dedicated students, and much more invested in learning the language than I was.

magic1964

|2010-06-25 07:13:21

Heidi aka MissFuzzy , your tiny little personal experience is not relevent.....I believe in serious statistics. My own Danish teacher was very good doesn´t mean the the language schools in Demnmark are goods....

JJC - I believe in serious statistics...

|2010-06-27 18:26:18

"I believe in serious statistics"...

What an interesting comment Magic... Would you please care to elaborate on this, because I don't believe that your opinions are based on anything but hot air. So please let us all know, what 'serious statistics' are you referring to? Who has conducted the research? And where can I look it up?

Secondly...

"My own Danish teacher was very good doesn't mean the language schools in Denmark are goods...."

If you had taken the time to actually READ and COMPRIHEND Hedi's comment you would see that she was referring to dedication of the middle eastern women in her class. Her comments had nothing to do with her Danish teacher or the general state of language schools here in Denmark...

This is yet again another perfect example of you posting-without-thinking, and embarrassing yourself...

magic1964

|2010-06-27 23:08:30

I write again, maybe those women should first focus on learning some Danish and get into work before they start having any kids who many of them end up criminals!!!! The Danish welfare make too many immigrants irresponsible since they get everything for free.........
Here some statictics....http://www.nyidanmark.dk/NR/rdonlyres/F47F6F78-32E2-4112-9D0C-4B3B6675A9E5/0/statistical_overview_2007.pdf

HOX - To: magic1964

|2010-06-29 09:04:27

'I write again, maybe those women should first focus on learning some Danish and get into work before they start having any kids who many of them end up criminals!!!! The Danish welfare make too many immigrants irresponsible since they get everything for free.........
Here some statictics....http://www.nyidanmark.dk/NR/rdonlyres/F47F6F78-32E2-4112-9D0C-4B3B6675A9E5/0/statistical_overview_2007.pdf'

If the link is supposed to prove that immigrants are social spongers, - it doesn't! Maybe you haven't read it, or maybe you can't?

Maitatenda

|2010-06-29 10:38:00

I do agree with the reseach findings. Mostly, immigrant women have more challenges than their male counterparts . They arrive in Denmark without a job . They get jobs as cleaners where they are already isolated . One important factor is that are in Denmark as spouses so definately they have to play that role i.e having kids .
Teaching methods at these schools does'nt cater for educated immigrants .I got the feeling that there was no room for me as an educated black women with a university education. Danish classes are a joke !!!

hurrdurr

|2010-06-29 13:13:41

When I was taking Danish classes, they put me in a "turbo" class with other first- worlders. Lo and behold, we actually spent the time learning the language instead of chatting and acting like entitled children.

Heidi aka MissFuzzy

|2010-06-29 13:31:06

Good on you, not having to sully yourself with other worlders!

/snark

ravensdane

|2010-06-29 13:52:24

As the son of an immigrant anglophone family, my feelings on this are mixed.

I went to a Danish kindergarten and school, I grew up speaking two languages fluently and to all intents and purposes was raised as a Dane and was indistinguishable from the Danish children I grew up around.

Whilst I don't think they would ever have passed for Danes, my parents learned the language, didn't rely on the ability of Danes to speak English and integrated to the point where my father served for very many years on both Det Økonomiske Råd and Dansk Arbejdsgiverforening.

So, what I am trying to say is that I was brought up to believe in integrating and to this day believe that it is your duty as an immigrant to respect the ways of, and learn to integrate into, the society into which you have chosen to settle .. but, then again, I am white and Anglo-Saxon, I have the benefit of looking like I belong and have ancestry from a part of England which makes it a pretty certain bet that at least some of my forefathers originated from what is now Denmark. Even now, when I am living in London, I regard myself as more Danish than I do British.

However, where I do start to worry is when I see comments which take on racial judgements and refer to culture or religion.

It isn't just those of totally alien cultures and religions who are the problem here. Indeed, in many ways I would argue that it is the crass complacency of those who are from much closer to home who are the bigger problem .. I mean, why else is there the need for a newspaper such as this?

There are certainly undesirable cultural issues which make it difficult for some women to gain the independence needed to learn the language and integrate – and I am in no way defending those – but what is the excuse of the anglophone community where such issues are largely absent? For that reason, I really have very little time for the cultural explanation.

The methods and quality of teaching may be part of the problem – but equally, what is the point of teaching in a language other than the language you are trying to learn? Surely immersion is better than just dipping your toe in with the knowledge that you can always revert to native tongue.

Telling is the fact that I only see one person here with the commendable to courage to admit that they may themselves have been a part of the problem.

I don't think that there is any one simple answer to this; but I do generally think that the immigrants themselves shoulder a hefty burden of the responsibility and , need to take more responsibility for their own integration.

dianecarole - Maitatenda

|2010-06-29 13:56:57

You obviously didn't attend KISS. You need to be a graduate to attend these classes, but you need not to be working fulltime, or you will crack under the pressure.

I have heard that other classes are not as intense, so you get a choice, work you butt off for 9 months, with learning Danish as your only goal in life, or relax at the other schools and never get to learn since the rest of the class don't want to.

The problem is for people who work full time and then try to do KISS! 12 hours of lessons a week and just as much homework, and if you miss or fail 2 classes you get to repeat 3 weeks. When you travel with work as I do, it was really difficult to fit everything in.

Mon class 5-9
Tues 3-4 hours of homework & prep
Wed class 5-9
Thus 3-4 hours of home work
Fri class 5-9
Sun 3-4 hours homework.

Fit in a full time job and housework, and you get a very stressed person. Try for some social life too and you wear yourself to a frazzle.

Maitatenda - @dianacarole

|2010-06-30 00:14:36

Dianacarole , i'm a postgraduate professional. I also went to KISS ! I'm critical of the teaching methods . I think this research can open a debate as to how teaching can be improved in these schools . Yes , there is a challenge in that immigrants are from different countries and their level of education and circumstances differ. But there is need to rethink on this issue. I'm really not sure if the teachers were properly trained . Being a danish major at university is not good enough. Immigrants can actually provide an insight to this issue . Sit down with the women immigrants . Hear their side of story .

kagemedchutzpah - Maitatenda

|2010-06-30 08:37:48

" I mean, why else is there the need for a newspaper such as this?"

First and foremost, to serve those of the immigrant community who are new to Denmark and have not yet acquired knowledge of the Danish language. That process does, obviously, take time.

Secondly, to provide an alternative news source to Politiken's English section for the numerous tourists and students who visit this country every year.

Thirdly, to provide a source of Danish news for the international community. It is quite a rare thing indeed for events transpiring in Denmark to make Fox News, CNN, BBC, etc. Therefore, anyone outside of this nation (and who obviously does not possess knowledge of the Danish language, as most of the world does not) would require an English-language news site from which to keep themselves informed of current events here.

"but equally, what is the point of teaching in a language other than the language you are trying to learn? Surely immersion is better than just dipping your toe in with the knowledge that you can always revert to native tongue. "

Having lived in seven nations over the course of my lifetime and having learned as many languages, I have experienced both native-language instruction and immersion. Both have their merits.

For some, having the rules of grammar and usage explained to them in their native language (along with vocabulary lists translated into their native language) is more helpful and useful; it makes these things a bit clearer and the rules sink in a little more efficiently. It can also be advantageous for some to have little acronyms or phrases in their native language explained to them as a means of helping them remember certain irregularities in the language they are learning (such as "Dr & Mrs Vandertramp" as a means of assisting one to remember which French verbs use "être" in the passé composé instead of "avoir"- outside of reflexive verbs, naturally.)

Furthermore, for individuals who are not as adroit in acquiring a new language, being able to have their questions answered in their native language may often times keep them motivated to continue in their endeavours to learn.

Native language assistance can also be of benefit with pronounciation. If one can relate sounds in the new language to ones they already know from their native one, then it is easier to correctly reproduce them when necessary. Also, a good instructor who knows the specific weaknesses of particular individuals due to their native language can contrive ways to get their students to overcome those weaknesses. One does not receive such assistance in immersion classes.

Immersion is not necessarily the best form of language education for everyone, especially as one grows older (it does become more difficult to learn new languages as one ages.) If one can extrapolate all the knowledge one requires from the myriad of examples one is given and from the exercises one performs, then one will be successful. Otherwise, what one gains from immersion classes is very little and the end result is poor reading and communication skills.

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Immigrant women run into language barrier

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