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Front page News Commentary Want citizenship? Forget it

Want citizenship? Forget it

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By Michala Clante Bendixen, member of the Committee for Underground Refugees

Most Danes take their citizenship for granted. But if you or your parents weren’t born in Denmark, obtaining citizenship can be an impossible dream, even if you’ve spent your whole life here. Very few people realise just how strict the rules for naturalisation have become over the past few years. Without comparison, Denmark now has the toughest demands in Europe.

We have reached a point without much debate where a number of people will never become ‘true Danes’ with full rights, no matter how big an effort they make, or how long they have lived in the country. The required levels for language skills and economic status, plus knowledge of Danish culture and history, are so high that many ‘old’ Danes wouldn’t pass the test. Even members of the Danish parliament have failed the test when they tried it for fun.

A certain amount of language skills and knowledge of the country seems a reasonable prerequisite for a Danish passport. But it is hard to argue for demands that many will never be able to meet. Nine out of ten of the newly arrived refugees from Burma will never pass the language test according to a survey by the Danish Refugee Council. And these are refugees hand-picked for their integration potential.

So what are the demands exactly? As explained below they include having lived a certain number of years in Denmark, being able to support oneself, having a clean criminal record, passing a language exam as well as a multiple choice test on culture and history, and finally signing a statement.

Firstly, you must have been living, legally, in the country for the past nine years, without interruption. Then you must prove that you have been able to support yourself for four of the last five years, and have no debts to the state. You also have to give up your present citizenship as Denmark doesn’t accept dual citizenship.

A conviction for a minor crime can postpone it for several years, and the citizenship is completely out of the question if you have ever had a conviction for more than 60 days. And regarding the proportions I have found an example where the possession of 0.7g of hash will postpone your citizenship by 11 years, on top of the nine you already had to wait.

Last winter the new, and tougher, version of the naturalisation test (Indfødsretprøven) was introduced, and barely 25 percent passed it. In it you have 45 minutes to answer a minimum of 32 out of 40 multiple choice questions correctly. The questions can be about the European Parliament, the population groups in the Viking age, the year a certain Danish political party was established, the name of a Danish sculptor etc. Basically, these are questions that only one third of the ‘original’ Danish population can answer correctly, namely the ones with higher education degrees. Besides, the questions are completely irrelevant with regards to daily participation in Danish society.

Then there are the language skill requirements: only graduating from the highest level of Danish known as ‘Danskprøve 3’ gives access to citizenship. Individual teachers will determine which of the three levels you fit into, and you will only be placed on level 3 if you already have an education or about nine years of school attendance from your home country, and if you show promising abilities for future learning – the levels are parallel courses and you cannot rise from one to the next. The course has to be completed within three years.

Last but not least, you have to sign a statement saying that you will respect Danish law, not beat your wife and children and respect Danish democracy. Native Danes, like myself, have never agreed to this in writing – why is it assumed that new citizens may be more violent or hostile to society than existing ones?

Denmark now has the toughest citizenship demands in Europe. Most countries have no language test and have a much shorter time limit for application. In Sweden, for example, refugees can apply after only four years. Many countries encourage newcomers to become citizens because they see it as a way not just to improve integration but also to encourage an active and responsible participation in society. Most other countries also accept dual citizenship, for similar reasons.

The  demands are also contrary to international conventions, as two leading NGOs have pointed out to the government. We have agreed to ease the way to citizenship for refugees and stateless people. Yet we are doing the exact opposite. The fact is that the  demands are discriminatory, especially as refugees have a much poorer chance of learning Danish and getting a foothold on the labour market since many are traumatised and have neither an existing network to rely upon, nor appropriate job experience. Women are particularly subject to this discrimination because many arrive with less education and less work experience than men. Basically, an illiterate woman has no chance of ever obtaining citizenship.

The procedure in itself is also quite unique. Naturalisation is not a right, even if you fulfil all the demands. It is seen as a gift from the Parliament, as described in a dusty chapter of the Danish constitution. Unless the Police Intelligence Service are suspicious of you, your name will appear on a list which a parliamentary committee has to approve. According to esteemed lawyers, this procedure is against the Danish Law of Administration.

How can we demand that newcomers speak better Danish, be more industrious and better informed than the average citizen? My mother-in-law only went to school for six years and is dyslexic. An alcoholic on incapacity benefits is not self supportive. Yet they are all Danish citizens, with a passport and the right to vote.

The sad paradox is that it was Dansk Folkeparti who suggested all these new demands, yet surveys show that their voters would be the last ones to pass the test if they had to. Rather, the Danes with the highest level of education and income are the most positive about immigration.

Having the option to obtain citizenship in the country in which you live is important for the sense of belonging and taking an active part in society. It is about having influence and being protected by the country to which you belong. It is also about having a passport to enable you to travel freely. It’s about voting and applying for jobs.

Refugees have a special need to create bonds with their new country as they may never be able to return to their home countries, and most of them feel a deep and sincere gratitude for their asylum. So why not welcome them for real when we have already given them a residency permit?

The tough demands originate from the idea of assimilation rather than integration. I am convinced that each applicant wants to make an effort to prove their attachment to Denmark. However, when it becomes too difficult, the overall effect will be poorer integration and further division between the different ethnic groups.

Comments
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drsasinha   |2009-11-02 16:49:54
Forget citizenship, I was refused permanent residency even though I speak and write fluent danish, being a skilled professional having a permanent high salaried job, well integrated and having stayed here for more than 4 yrs. All in all I would say I qualified for it according to the 3 yrs rule. But I was refused because I have not stayed here for 7 years. Strange because they keep on giving these PR's to undeserving people.
PMC   |2009-11-02 17:49:54
Very good article. Thankyou for shedding light on a subjet which is a true injustice to not only foreigners in Denmark but Danes wishing to (but cannot) obtain citizenship abroad due to a very well orchistrated propaganda policy machine.
thefutureofbass  - well   |2009-11-02 18:38:59
i refuse to learn danish i'm
on full akasse and i don't care.
magic1964   |2009-11-02 19:26:35
Recently some "new"Swedish were caught in Pakistan and accused to be linked with Al Qaida.....as you see giving Swedish citizenship help a lot for integration...: )))))
Some people are so naïve that they think giving citizenship or right to vote for local election help integration....
magic1964   |2009-11-02 19:29:14
Oh yes by the way, the good thing about not giving citizenship like candies is that if immigrants comit crimes they can be send out !!!! at least they are more carefull.....
yetanotherexpat  - drsasinha   |2009-11-02 21:56:00
drsasinha - You are joking, right? Did you even research before applying for PR? Because, if you did so, you would have known that living here for 7 consecutive years is a prerequisite for a Danish PR. The 3 year rule applies only to those who entered Denmark before February 2002. All those who have entered Denmark after that time will come under the 7 year rule. So the Danish Immigration rightly dismissed your PR application. Without a basic understanding of the Danish PR laws, you are complaining here like an ignorant dumbass!
JFD   |2009-11-02 23:14:36
Wonderfully written article, although I'd like to object to "Having the option to obtain citizenship in the country in which you live is important for the sense of belonging and taking an active part in society".

If it comes to be that I live the rest of my life here, then that'll be fine with me, but there aint a chance in hell I'll give up my American citizenship. Yet this will never stop me from being active in Danish society and feeling like a welcomed guest.

Also, just to come at this issue from another angle, Denmark belongs to the Danes. They have no moral obligation to open their borders, particularly to suit the expat community. As a free country, if Danes elect officials who choose to close the borders even tighter, then isn't this just the democratic process at work?

There is a saying in the business world that a good manager always hires people smart than himself/herself. While this is not always taken or practiced literally, the over riding logic is sound. If you want improvement, bring in only those more qualified than you. Now transpose this logic to citizenship and suddenly the stringent tests don't seem as evil as they are made out to be.
emory_rb   |2009-11-02 23:58:19
My partner and I left Denmark after arriving for graduate work at the University of Copenhagen in large part because of the severe character of nationalism and immigration in the country. A full government scholarship for two years wasnt' worth the feeling of being a tolerated alien for the duration of the course, or facing the impossible task of integrating if we chose to stay on and provide the state with the skills it claims to need so badly. So, we're now happily settled in Sweden along with what appears to be a small but respectable and growing number of Danish ex-patriots .

I don't know a great deal about the history and culture of Denmark, but as a Dane I would be very worried about the essentialist colour of the current government. It comes too close to racism in a respectable and legitimate move to preserve cultural heritage. When not even your own citizens can meet the standards of nationality imposed on others it doesn't bode well for the long term success of the society. Even taking into account the very real problems that the state faces in financing welfare entitlements to immigrants with lingering cultural, labour, and education gaps with natives, I find little ground to justify the quality of hostility that the state is projecting abroad. It isn't just immigrants that need to make an effort to take part in their new home - natives also need to take responsibility and feel out the barriers they raise to successful integration and synthesis.
sunnchilde  - Love our country? Too bad - get out.   |2009-11-03 00:32:00
This is very disconcerting. If a person is willing to invest in his/her new country, live there, work there, integrate in every way, there should be a path available to them that isn't stacked against them.
Learning the language goes without saying. Every person living in a country needs to be able to speak the native language fluently, without question.
But knowing the date a political party was founded? That's absurd. I don't know when the US Democratic or Republican parties were founded, and I don't care. What they stand for, yes, when they started, useless.
tomnashdk   |2009-11-03 08:01:51
It is really nice to see all of this explanation in one place. It will make it much easier for me to explain to my friends and colleagues why I will never apply for Danish citizenship. The fact that this is written by a Dane gives it even more impact. Thank you, CPH Post.

May I have permission to reprint this article on my personal web site (with all due credit given, of course)?
magic1964  - Why is that ???   |2009-11-03 09:46:10
And why Denmark has adopt stricter rules ??

Because too many immigrants are abusing the welfare state costing a hell of a money to tax payers...too many immigrants are ruining cities areas...too many immigrants don´t care about work but care about religion, tradition and politics....too many immigrants comit crimes....too many immigrants spend their life trying to find excuses for their behaviour ( the most commun is racism)

That´s why Denmark don´t want to give citizenship like candies anymore !!!
rakusson   |2009-11-03 09:55:10
The article has some point BUT we must analyze why Denmark had a flexible citizenship law before 2002 (3 years-rule) and very very tough now? The early immigrants are to be blamed not the Danes. It is the result of the action of those immigrants who abused the opportunity given by the Denmark. There might be some exception immigrants but majority of them have ruined this country. Now, they need to make a law by which they can deport any foreigners involving in crime regardless how many years he has lived in Denmark.

By the way, I am not Dane.
wor  - If you are a guy...   |2009-11-03 10:20:45
...and you are not from an EU country you NEED to think twice before you start having "relations" with a Danish woman

Once your residency expires or you get divorced, the athourities will try to kick you out of the Denmark just because they can!
...not good if you plan to be a father to your offspring. (Seen this done before, btw)
wor  - @ rakusson   |2009-11-03 10:36:16
It sounds like that you are blaming immigrants for xenophobic attitudes in Denmark.

Correct me by BACKING UP your comments with facts, please.
magic1964  - Denmarks an example....   |2009-11-03 11:39:47
In Europe many top economists ( right and left ) praise Denmark as an example in terms of economy and social welfare......so you see maybe this has to do with the fact Denmark has tougher its law towards immigration no ??
France and England have been too laxists for too many years....just visit Paris or London subs and you understand the chaos !!!!!
bored!   |2009-11-03 13:45:07
I must admit, I find it hard to understand why everyone is so shocked by this article. Denmark is not the first and definitely not the last country to make obtaining citizenship difficult. At least you can get a residency here!

I have a friend, he has lived in the US for the past 15 years. He has a permanent residency but the US won't grant his Japanese wife a green card. So they live in Canada!

I'm from Australia, fat chance if you think your going to walk through our borders too. Our citizenship test is also ridiculous. I would fail it for sure.

I'm sorry to say it but i have a feeling the majority of people kicking up a fuss about this may come from a country that, not only do they not want to live in but no one else in the world would want to live in either!
rakusson  - @wor   |2009-11-03 14:02:47
Dear Wor,

I've lived in Sweden & now in Denmark. I do not need to give you proof behind the reason of xenophobic attitude of Danes towards foreigners. I have myself felt it. I dont want to write here but Scandinavia has a large proportion of immigrants from a fixed region who are semi-barbarian if not barbarian. I've been abused many times from them and believe me they are 2nd generation immigrant. When I came to Europe for the first time, I had no hatred for any special race of people but I have to live rest of my life with it.

Do you know when your son, daughter gets harassed in your place then what attitude would you make towards foreigners? put garland on their neck? It's simple like eating cake, put barriers so that they would not come. I would have done it so the Dane did it.

By immigrants my motto is not to blame all immigrants but to those semi-barbarians who could not change themselves as well as their offspring in this civilized world.

I think it is better to put barrier than to let extreme right-wings be popular.

I am writing about what I have seen and perceived myself, no bias against any group.
Jon_Casey  - Righty o little miss magic   |2009-11-03 14:12:27
Wow, I don’t suppose that little miss magic1964 is really an alias for Pia Kjaersgaard is it? What a bunch of xenophobic and uninformed dribble your post is… The world must really be a frightening place for you, with all us foreigners out there! And now we’ve come to invade little Denmark in our hordes to leach off your social security and destroy your way of life! You sounds just like the typical Dansk Folkeparti voter that this article describes… and I would be very interested to see how you go with the naturalization test.

It is absolutely frightening that these attitudes can prevail in an educated country… I second wor’s comments, do you have ANY FACTS with which to back up your comments?
JFD   |2009-11-03 16:09:39
Magic speaks the truth, sorry if that conflicts with your idealistic view of the world.

For those of you seeking facts: Try starting here:

http://jp.dk/indland/krimi/article1371018.ece
drsasinha  - To yetanotherexpat   |2009-11-03 17:28:34
I wish you had done your home work before calling any one dumbass. Now I wonder who's one. Ignorant pseudoelitist.
magic1964   |2009-11-03 19:05:53
My parents were immigrants, Im immigrant.....
When you move to a country it´s like when you nghbours gives you hospitality in their house.
You don´t spit on the flloor , complain that the food is disgusting or start changing TV chanels.....this is what many immigrants do in Denmark.
If you call this racism then please invit me to your home.....
yetanotherexpat  - LadyStarLight   |2009-11-03 19:26:01
Yes, I am aware of those exceptions to the 7 year rule, but the 'high qualifications' mentioned by drsasinha does not meet all the conditions (especially the 'significant, tangible connection to Danish society' condition) set by the immigration service for the exception to be granted.

More than his obvious ignorance, what pissed me off were:
1. His pseudoelitist comment(lot of undeserving people are getting and i am not even though I am better than all),
2. His 'let's happy-whine about crappy denmark' tone (the irony being him wanting to stay here permanently)
3. His superior sense of entitlement to the PR.

And wish you good luck to your citizenship application when you get there :)

PS: I will be completing my 7 years come January(came here for my master studies 7 years ago and have been working in a high paying job after completing my studies), but have decided against applying for a PR as I want to go back to my country since I am missing it too much. Overall I would say, my life was good here in Denmark. I wouldn't say I thoroughly enjoyed it only because I was missing my family, friends, culture, etc and nothing would substitute one's own country. But Denmark gave me a peaceful and friendly life, which I doubt too many other countries can offer.
h  - guys and gals ...   |2009-11-04 11:58:23
... it seems like we are drawing too much personal bad blood here. All things equal and without naming any names, my objection is to the fact is that when some of us talk about immigrants, they are treating all the immigrants in the same light and weighing them on the same balance. Personally I believe that immigrants should be segmented and different rules should apply to different types of immigrants. Remember, there are some kind of immigrants which Denmark needs, and then there are other kind of immigrants who need Denmark. It will be a grave mistake by Denmark (or any other country, for that matter) to paint all the immigrants in the same colour. Eventually, this mistake will lead to nothing less than a self-inflicted fatal wound.
magic1964   |2009-11-04 08:36:14
Denmark need immigrants ho take work and integration as priority indstead of religion, politics and welfare....
wor  - @ rakusson   |2009-11-04 10:23:40
Thanks for your comment.

I found it useful that you explained the reasoning behind your first comment.

MY VIEW: The thing about generalizations is that you can always someone who fits or does not fit them.

So generally it's best not to generalize without a solid basis that can be backed up. I prefer to suspend judgement, list possible reasons, and then watch to see which facts fit the list of possible reasons, and see what else is missing in my thoughts.
This takes time but there is actually no need to rush to conclusions.

When I was younger, I liked to be right and found that I was sometimes wrong due to predjudicial thinking. Now instead of jumping to conclusions, I spend less time being wrong by spending more time to see what is actually happening, list possibilities, and see where the facts fit, and then start again.

Rakusson, you mentioned hatred in you last post. The thing about hatred is that it breads hatred. People acting towards you badly is spurred on by people trying to bring you down to a low level, which is the same level they are on. THIS IS TO DO WITH SOME ELEMENT OF PEOPLES PSYCHE.

You could replace the word hatred with the word xenophobic/racist in my last paragraph, and the same would still apply.

When subjected to xenophobic/racist attitudes I found that I did not have to be strong I just had not to be weak enough to lower my standards to be xenophobic/racist in return, and ignore them as an elephant would ignore a fly.

Enjoy your day, rakusson
magic1964  - Second generation immigrants....   |2009-11-04 12:52:56
Second generation immigrants are responsible for all this crispation and tension in Danish society. In spite all social benefits, free eduation and health middel eastern familly have failed to raised properly their sons who take the street at the age of 12......funny to see how strict parents can be with daughters and how laxists they can be be with boys....
Being the father of 2 kids I know how difficult it is to control them.....but then imagine 5, 6 or more kids like it´s commun among immigrants....
h  - magic1964 - enough is enough!   |2009-11-04 14:54:10
it looks like you are wearing a one-coloured spectacle to view the whole world in its entirety. You might very well have something personal against immigrants (or majority of a particular type of immigrants - if your sight is not that clouded so to see the difference); but, don't make your personal battles the highlights of this comments page. Please stick to the article - objectively. Keep your holy wars in your private circle.
NotaBITTERforeigner  - damestjernelys   |2009-11-04 14:31:39
RIGHT ON!

They're like sad little broken records...
JFD   |2009-11-04 15:17:25
OK, fair enough Dame, but allow me to interject with a different angle just as food for thought and not to be contrarian.

Factually, genetically and ethnically, "2nd generation immigrants" never be Danish. They'll still be of the same ethnicity of their parents. Therefore, unless the 2nd generations marry a ethnic Dane and then their offspring marry an ethnic Dane, only then will they be "Danish" from a genetic majority perspective. This is to answer your question about how many generations it takes to be Danish.

Denmark is somewhat unique from other western countries because it's poplution is 90,5 of the same ethnicity. This is a huge proportion. Also, ethnicity seems to be a very, very important social value to Danes, dvs that Danes identify themselves via their ethnicity to a greater degree than other western country. Yes, I have never heard the term a "2nd genreation immigrant in the US" because it just doesn't apply, but, for example, I have also never heard anyone say, "I am ethnic American", because there is no such thing.

Therefore, what is so wrong with the term "2nd generation immigrant"

Now, I am not saying I support this theory, but I am just offering it as food for thought.

Bitter:
I called you a hypocrit earlier and I will certainly restate here for two solid reasons:

1. Your moniker says you are not bitter, but every post you make is negative and demeaning. These are the exact same attributes of a bitter person. Therefore, your words and your actions are opposite, just like a hypocrit.

2. You have complained about and belitted others at least 3 times that they are broken records, so your are consistent in this about others. Therefore, your very actions are the exact same thing that you're are complaining about in others. HYPOCRIT

There, are you now enlightened?
h  - Mr. sensible JFD!   |2009-11-04 21:00:49
"Factually, genetically, ethnically" and etc. etc., now we are mixing so many things to keep us confused perennially. How does anybody define someone being Dane/Danish. Should it be legally (rationally/logically) well thought of, globally and humanly accepted construed definition or should it be an emotionally-high maniacally-crazed sort of super-Aryans/fascist type of definition. Do you see which way you are going now? You just voted for Danish People's Party. They will love it. Nationality is different from ethnicity, geneticity etc. I wish that world keeps it like that to maintain sanity. Otherwise, majority of us will have to rethink about our identities.

And, yes, if instead I continue along your lines sir, then there was indeed such a thing as an "ethnic American" before a hypocrite white supremacist race decided to call that a different name. Not that I like to mention this.
NotaBITTERforeigner  - oh please...   |2009-11-04 16:43:27
Should I be flattered or frightened that you are keeping such a close eye on what I post? ;)

I am neither negative or demeaning actually. In fact I am quite happy here, have a ton of friends, a fabulous job etc. I simply call a spade a spade. If the truth hurts, well that isn't my fault now is it, oh wait...someone will be along shortly to blame that one also on the evil...evil...Danes I's sure.
Constantin  - .   |2009-11-04 18:28:51
Just a quick off-topic newsflash, I believe the correct spelling is "hypocrite". With an "E".

Don't wanna play the spelling Nazi, but three or four consecutive times, some of them in capital letters, eh.
PC  - Did everyone miss this?   |2009-11-04 19:17:35
By JFD
"Also, just to come at this issue from another angle, Denmark belongs to the Danes. They have no moral obligation to open their borders, particularly to suit the expat community. As a free country, if Danes elect officials who choose to close the borders even tighter, then isn't this just the democratic process at work?"

I envy JFD for having put this argument down in such a direct and clear way.

After he wrote this comment everything else said are just mute points.

This is not your country, not your rules. Displeased? Noone is holding you here?
PC  - from the "urban dictionary"   |2009-11-04 19:20:54
Hypocrit; a combination of liar,moron and hypocrite...

Maybe he was just going for a more descriptive adjective :p
drsasinha  - Surprised at the reactions   |2009-11-04 22:26:17
My starting comment has evoked such ridiculous reactions from few persons who dont know me personally or about my integration into the danish society and I dont have to prove it through media. My initial comment was made as reaction to the original article and the insecurity surrounding highly skilled professionals when they come here not on their own but after being head hunted promising the best here including a good future. But then there is a lot of discrepancy in the system. People who invite you say entirely opposite to what the government means. This should be rectified as I feel as a honest country it has certain obligations towards people whom they invite to work for their country.
seasonticket  - Ethnicity   |2009-11-05 00:39:54
There is no genetic basis in race / ethnicity.

Sorry. But scientifically, objectively, if you do experiments .. there is NO GENETIC basis in it.

Human beings GENETICALLY are far more similar and there are no obvious markers to even reliably indicate which continent someone's family might be from.
magic1964   |2009-11-05 08:37:20
This debate exist all over the world. In Africa, if a citizen from Burkina Faso move to cameroun he will be called a burkinabe and kids will be labeled as second generation burkinabe............

What about Chinese moving to Morocco? would they be called Moroccan?Chinese Moroccan ??? what about their kids ?? second generation Chinese?

It´s funny that we westerners we should be the only one to be ashamed and guilty all the time.....
wor  - The race myth!   |2009-11-05 09:50:48
I've posted some of the links below before:-

http: / / www.enotalone.com / article / 5043.html

http: / / www.enotalone.com / article / 5044.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/15/AR2005121501728.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3323607/Blue-eyes-result-of-ancient-genetic-mutation.html

RACE IS JUST A CONSTRUCT...it does not exist.

I'm trying to find source, but the percentage of genes that determine your skin colour, hair colour, and eye colour are of the same order.

THIS MEANS that you could further classify races based on eye colour, and hair colour. BUT THIS IS ONLY A HUMAN PSYCHOLOGICAL CLASSIFICATION...NOT A REAL ONE.

For example, there is the Earth, and there is the sea. But basically there are no countries in reality there is JUST LAND...COUNTRIES ARE JUST A HUMAN CONCEPT which is why birds and bees don't follow them. The same with the idea of race.

In the end...do you think or just follow?
magic1964  - wor.   |2009-11-05 11:35:17
Wor, who cares if races exist or not....people from the race , the same village, the same familly can kill each other for a football game, a wohman, a car or stupid argument in a pub etc etc.........
wor  - Magic   |2009-11-05 15:07:00
Tanks for your comment...

...but you miss the point, again

IT IS BECAUSE people believe that "certain differences" exist that those killings that you refer to happen.

Re-read that last point again, until you get it, Magic, and don't post again until you do.

Excuse my bluntness

EDIT: Magic, you posted before you got the point.
Tut, tut, tut :-)
magic1964   |2009-11-05 13:55:58
Well....many people who keep saying that we are all te same have voted Obama because he was black and not white.....

Funny to hear Nelson Mandela calling for a multiracial society while apparently races don´t exist...

Funny to hear people calling for mixing people to make a metis society since metis mean a person born from to parents who belong to different groups defined by visible physical differences, regarded as racial..

The antiracist are so contractictive.....they see no race on one hand but they see races on the other...

There to type of racist, the racist and the one called antiracists.....
magic1964  - damestjernelys   |2009-11-05 19:15:51
I see your point........and for me raising my kids so they can intergrate into a foreign land is a priority. I will always make sure that what I tell them from my own culture don´ t interfere with the Danish culture so they can smoothly adapt to this new land. But Hey....Im French and the diffrerences between French culture and Danish culture aren´t that big....yes we speak louder and love to argue, we eat different, but that´s about it.....
JFD  - Heritage   |2009-11-05 23:05:14
PC: Thanks for the supportive words.

H: Looks like you were right, but now that the worms have crawled out of the can and burrowed in the mud, here’s more fuel for the fire:

Wor & seasonticket: If there is no genetic basis for race and it is just a construction that doesn’t exist, then why do blacks get sickle cell anemia (a genetic disorder, mind you) and caucasians don’t?

Lastly, before I bow out of this mess, let me bring this thread back on point by offering a 3rd reason as to why the term ”2nd generation immigrant” could be applicable. HERITAGE. Danes are rightfully a proud people and their country has been mostly homogeneous for centuries. Therefore, one could argue that Danes define themselves by their heritage. A child of immigrant parents (a natural Danish citizen or "Dane" by definition of law), still does not have Danish heritage. Maybe therefore they aren’t viewed by their majority countrymen as “1st generation Danish” or the like, but rather ”2nd generation immigrant”. So from this perspective, what’s so wrong with Danes of Danish heritage using this term because it would be more in-line with how they denfine themselves?
h  - To the best pals - PC & JFD & Co.   |2009-11-06 10:29:01
First, you are partner to the crime of creating this mess. So, you cannot simply bow out of it. To write such a thing as “Also, just to come at this issue from another angle, Denmark belongs to the Danes. They have no moral obligation to open their borders, particularly to suit the ex-pat community. As a free country, if Danes elect officials who choose to close the borders even tighter, then isn't this just the democratic process at work?” is to mislead the readers and confuse them. You guys do sometimes succeed in it. Hats off to you. First of all, which planet are you living on. Did you forget that on this planet still, within Europe, we have European Union of 27 nations and Denmark is “democratically” part of it. So, as long as the ex-pats are coming from one of these 27 countries, then, no Sirs, Denmark cannot let them not to enter in. If, yes, Denmark leaves EU and transports all the “ethnic Danes” to the moon, then it might be possible to create an Utopia of yours. However, yes, if the immigrants are from Non-EU countries, then the situation changes and you can sing your tune to the loudest. But, and this one is a strong 'but', which direction would you like to take this world into. Forward looking globalization where the free movement of people, goods, services, and capital is ensured, as long as they can prove their worth or backward looking ages of medieval protectionism (let me pee on the boundaries of my territory so as to warn other males off). Is this Protectionist kind of masterpiece of a world you guys are collaborating to sketch. Please sit down and think about it.

Nonetheless, the debate afterwards where some of us have put on the their advanced microscopes and gone down to the level of genetics is kind of stretching it too far. Whether races exist scientifically or not, I don't know. What I do know is that the perception of races exist and they are so profound that they do need our attention and awareness. All great leaders have tried to do exactly the same, i.e. don't try to hide the fact that perceptions don't exist, instead be aware of it, be aware of its consequences and make it sure that everyone is treated fairly and not discriminated on the basis of it. All this fuss about racist and anti-racist is unnecessary here and bringing Nelson Mandela into it is uncalled for. Give the guy a break, he has had enough.

Yes, off course, there is nothing wrong in being proud of one's heritage and identifying themselves with it. What is indeed wrong and a misconception is to separate and define the whole region inside political boundaries (i.e. 'a country') and its citizens, purely on the basis of heritage. A piece of land has never always seen or will always see the same single heritage forever. Heritages come and go away in time, the piece of land more or less stays. So, if Denmark is a country, then its citizens will be legally defined. If Denmark had been the name of a heritage, then, yes, only a few million chosen people in the world could be Danes and not others. JFD, if you have been cleverly playing with words like this; then sing your own lullaby to make yourself a nice sleep. It won't bother me at all. I rest my case here.

JFD - On a lighter note, I not only think before writing anything, but also after it has been written. And, that explains the burial of the can of worms!
magic1964   |2009-11-06 08:53:07
You can´t force immigrants to like fæskesteg, Tuborg and rød grød med flød.....you can´t force immigrants to call their kids Lars.
But on the other way immigrants can´t live in Denmark like they use to live in their native home either. Parents have to make sure that their kids adopt the base of Danish culture and this minimum is learning Danish language, equalty between man and wohman, respect of Danish law and respect for Danish people.
chris   |2009-11-06 11:18:06
Why is anyone who knows anything about Danish culture surprised by this?

I love Denmark, but pretending it's a fairytale where if things don't work out it's due to some "evil witch" (in this case "the bad, racist Danes vs. the good, nice Danes") is not constructive.

Denmark is not America. In America, if you take citizenship, to many (maybe even most) Americans you are becoming American. This works because America murdered the indigenous population, leaving the land open for European migration. We are a nation of predominately European immigrants, and therefore, an immigrant who takes citizenship "becomes" American in exactly the same sense as everyone else.

Denmark is not America, and thinking of it that way is insulting to the Danes, who have thier own, unique culture. But part of that culture is the fact that Danes are the indigenous people here - they are Denmark's equivelent of American Indians.

When you take citizenship here, you gaining the rights of a Dane, not becoming Danish. Your children will not "be Danish". It is impossible for them to be Danish, they are not part of the indigenous population or culture, and a Dane will always know that.

You won't be a Dane because your words and thoughts will never be Danish. Your cloths will always have influence from your foreign tastes. Your childern will be raised in your house, thinking your foreign thoughts in the foreign language you speak. You smell different from the different foods you eat. And, most importantly, you will never, ever think like a Dane.

Danes know other Danes because they have a common history of over 15,000 years. And they will always know you and your children are not Danish, despite your citizenship.

But the real question is, does it matter? Not to me. When I'm looking for a society to be a member of, I'm looking for safety, good education, and care for the poor. And Denmark does these things very, very well, far better than America.

I moved to Denmark in part to learn about another culture. One of the things I've learned is you can't accept a culture in pieces. American can't support a social welfare system like Denmark for the same reason that it can accept immigrants as "American" while Danes can't: differences in the sense of community obligation. Americans don't know, and don't care, about other Americans because they could be anyone from anywhere. But a Dane will care for other Danes, because being "Danish" means something.
JFD   |2009-11-06 11:48:04
My accolades Chirs. Very well put!
h  - oh dear!   |2009-11-06 12:16:27
Chris - such fumes and fires. First of all, we have to remove the ambiguity surrounding what does a 'Dane' means. On second thoughts and a little research shows me that being a 'Dane' could mean both: either people of certain ethnic group (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_people) which some of us were upholding or people having a legal nationality in Denmark (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Denmark), to which I was stuck with. Then, it gets pretty much reduced to the war of the best meaning of the word. Since, after enlightenment, these petty wars seem like a waste of time for me, I am pulling out of here with these final words. The whole debate (and the article) goes much beyond these two meanings of the word. It is about fairness whether you are a Dane or not, by any definition. And, that fairness should prevail.
tomnashdk   |2009-11-06 11:58:43
So Chris what you are essentially saying is that even if I jump through all of the hoops, and pass all of the tests, and renounce my citizenship from another country, and obtain my Danish citizenship, I will still be a second-class citizen in the eyes of "real Danes."

Sorry, 15,000 year of history notwithstanding, that is not the definition of citizenship in any country.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is the article itself - Want citizenship? Forget it! The explanantions in the article and this entire discussion is nothing more than feeble attempts to explain an attitude problem that drove the tough requirements in the first place.

Only when Denmark begins to hurt economically even more than it is beginning to hurt now will Danes wake up and realize that they need to make a few adjustments. So everybody sit back and relax until the "real Danes" figure it out. In the meantime, the only thing I think I am missing by not being a Danish citizen is jury duty, and that is fine with me. :)
NotaBITTERforeigner  - Chris...   |2009-11-06 12:58:11
You are my hero, wonderfully put!
wor  - Sickle Cell Anemia   |2009-11-06 13:06:35
Hey JFD, thanks for your question about sickle cell animea.

I know alot of both black people and white people think of sickle cell animea as only a black disease. This is due to a common misperception.

I'm no expert but having heard this misperception myself and not questioning it for many years, I become "awakened" when I first heard that it is not only "black" people who have sickle cell animea.

I provide the following quotes:-

"For instance, let's examine the message that causes sickle cell anemia, a disease that people think of as associated with race. This message occurs in large numbers in people who live in tropical areas because, it turns out, that if you have one sickle cell message and one normal message, you have a better chance of surviving malaria, a typical disease of the tropics. So, the sickle cell anemia message is in high frequencies in populations in western Africa, the Middle East, the Persian Gulf, the Mediterranean, and India."
Source: http://www.enotalone.com/article/5044.html

"Who is Affected?
In the United States people are often surprised when they learn that a person who is not African American has sickle cell disease."
Source: http://www.sicklecelldisease.org/about_scd/affected1.phtml

"Are people of African descent the only group affected?
No. It is also present in Portuguese, Spanish, French Corsicans, Sardinians, Sicilians, mainland Italians, Greeks, Turks and Cypriots. Sickle cell disease also appears in Middle Eastern countries and Asia."
Source: http://www.sicklecelldisease.org/about_scd/faqs.phtml#african

"Is sickle cell a "black" disease? No. Contrary to popular perception, the gene variant that causes sickle cell disease evolved as a result of its surprising upside – malaria resistance. In the malaria belt regions of Africa, the Middle East, southern Europe and South Asia, this gene variant flourished because the benefits of malaria resistance outweighed the negative impact of sickle cell disease.

Why does sickle cell seem to afflict blacks the most? Sickle cell is found more frequently in persons of Middle Eastern, Indian, Mediterranean and African heritage because those geographic regions are most prone to malaria. The gene variant for sickle cell disease is related to malaria, not skin color."
Source: http://www.understandingrace.org/humvar/sickle_01.html

This notion of race belongs in the same box as "the world is flat".
h  - dame - I'm loving it   |2009-11-06 20:30:09
damestjernelys - though I don't agree with everything you say there in your last post; nevertheless, I am with you on that one. Frankly, chris' post was so full of crap that I won't even have cared to read it again, let alone reply to it in the manner it deserves. To me, it looks like someone is in total awe after close encounters of the third kind.

Thanks to you who did the painful part of replying to that post.
yetanotherexpat  - Citizenship? Yes! Citizen? NOOOO!   |2009-11-06 15:17:19
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/us/06suspect.html - perhaps a proof that it might be impossible for 'second generation immigrants' of a certain variety to be faithful citizens of their adopted countries despite their citizenship?
dianecarole  - Integrate   |2009-11-06 15:41:40
This whole issue is not about skin colour, it is about integrating into the local culture. If you are prepared to 'act like a Dane' then I think you should be allowed to be integrated.
The problem most Danes have is with those who don't integrate, learn the language, and respect the views of the country you live in. They marry within their home culture, and decide to have a mini-homeland in the middle of Denmark...etc. I don't think anyone is actually racist, or colourist, but I will admit that I and many of my friends are 'behaviourist' i.e. we have a problem with people who don't behave with respect for the country they choose to live in.
When people talk about 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants, they talk about people who are brought up as if they still live in their parents or grandparents home country, their first language is not Danish. Their parents complain of racism if they are expected to speak Danish before they start school, but they were born here, and so were their parents! How can they expect us to think of them as Danish?
I am British, my partner is Danish, so our children have Danish and English as their languages, and I pay 'out of my own pocket' for the additional lessons in English for them. I do not expect Denmark to pay for my children to be taught in the language of my choice. Just as I don't expect my children to be able to act any differently than any other Danish children.
damestjernelys  - Yetanotherexpat-   |2009-11-06 16:29:55
Then what about Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols? Theodore Kaczynski (aka "The Unabomber" ?) George Metesky? Eric Rudolph? Sylvia Seegrist? Charles Joseph Whitman? Jack Gilbert Graham?

You can't use the 'second generation immigrant' excuse for these people and for others like them.... home-grown American filth.

Religion, ethnicity, nation of origin, race, etc. has no bearing on whether or not someone is going to end up being like your example or like mine... or whether they will end up being decent, law-abiding people.
yetanotherexpat  - Dame...   |2009-11-07 09:49:00
Probably you overlooked the difference in motive between my example and yours? The key difference is that the motive for the sample of mass murderers you provided for their actions was certainly not 'out of hate for their own country for her perceived crime against their 'brotherhood' somewhere else in the world'. This clearly shows where the priorities and loyalty lie for my example. Doesn't the shooter psycho's motive prove that he is more a 'second generation immigrant' and less an American?
thefutureofbass  - now i got it.   |2009-11-08 19:51:29
As an African American i always blame myself why i don't have friends.Now i know why, Denmark is full of moron's.
alynns2000  - sheesh   |2009-11-08 23:35:17
Everything I've heard about Denmark is fantastic. I've never been there yet but the way it sounds, I would love to live there. Reading this article is disheartening. I didn't realize how hard it was to gain citizenship. Maybe I'm naive but Denmark sounds idyllic. Is it hard to get a job there if not a citizen?
tomnashdk   |2009-11-09 11:48:05
Right now unemployment is going up in DK. There are some very nice jobs available but they are in very specific fields in very specific industries. UNLESS one has a job lined up BEFORE coming to DK it is not a wise idea to plan to move here right now.

In addition, be aware that between 60% and 70% of educated intelligent foreigners who come to Denmark to accept employment wind up leaving within 3 years, mostly due to difficulty in finding foreigner-friendly services and difficulty in successfully developing a Danish social network. It takes a big effort on the part of the foreigner to "break the code", as it were. If you are willing to put a lot of effort into it, you will most likely have a nice life and a good time in DK. If you expect DK to welcome foreigners and meet them half-way, forget it. This is a hot topic of discussion in Denmark right now, and it is getting worse for foreigners, not better.

The sad truth is that the laws regarding immigration and foreigners are designed to be preventative and punitive to a small minority of third-wold immigrants who are looking for a free lunch, but ALL foreigners get lumped into the same basket. The Danish system is not set up to recognize "good foreigners" from "social system sucking refugees." So in typical lazy DK "don't have to think" style, we all get treated the same from a legal and administrative standpoint. You have to have the willingness to push back claim your rights to make a life here.

It is possible for a foreigner to be successful here, but it takes a much larger effort on your part than in many other places n the world.
dianecarole  - Why do you want Citizenship?   |2009-11-09 13:44:06
I for one don't want to give up my citizenship of my home country, so no problem for me. I don't really see what is to be gained for getting Danish Citizenship, unless one of your parents are Danish and you were born outside DK.
I have had no problems integrating, no problems with any 'authority figure', and experienced no 'anti-immigrant' feelings towards me. I am white, British and spoke English, so perhaps this is the reason. Or may be it is just that I do not expect any special treatment, learnt the language, accept Danish food and customs, pay my taxes and 'give to' the country rather than expecting to 'take from' it. There are many things I don't like about Denmark and I know to go home when they outweigh the good things.

I was once told by an immigration official, when I lost my residency permit, and applied for a new one. 'Don't worry, we wont throw you out of the country for this, you pay your taxes, you have a good job, you live with a Dane, it is not you we are trying to get rid of'...so even if the system does not distinguish, some of the personnel do! A guess in any system there are ways and means to make things a little easier and a little more difficult.
In my application for permanent residence, I needed to have an interview to prove I could speak Danish, you would not believe how easy the interview was, if you can't pass that, then I understand why you are refused entry...but perhaps sometimes the interview is not that easy! Ways and means to make things more difficult can always be found.
JoeThePlumber  - To thefutureofbass   |2009-11-09 13:49:18
Well said!
I've been here now over 3 years and was so happy and excited to be here. Wanted to learn the language, culture, everything.
But, the more I learned, the more I learned that they don't want me here.
Truth is, you are correct, Denmark is filled with morons!
I'm here for the money, and will leave as soon as I'm done! Buh bye DK.
chris  - Dear Copenhagen Post...   |2009-11-10 09:00:30
Dear Copenhagen Post,

I've noticed the boards on the Copenhagen Post have become particularly aggressive, angry and despondent. People have started openly calling each other names which are very derogatory (like "cracker").

I'm not demeaning the feelings or opinions of any fellow foreigner, but it may be worthwhile to note this started in late October, early November.

It might be very helpful if the Copenhagen Post ran an article every year on vitamin D deficiency and seasonal affective disorder. It's important to remember that even if foreigners have never suffered from vitamin D deficiency or seasonal affective disorder in their home country, they are highly susceptible in Denmark's very dark, very cloudy winters.

Many foreigners might feel better this time of year with a trip to a doctor, a proper diet, or just some vitamin D supplements.
alynns2000  - citizenship   |2009-11-10 18:18:51
I want citizenship because of health care. I read foreigners have to buy private insurance. I don't know how expensive that is there but in the states, it is crippling us. My health insurance is 568.00 per month. I had to file bankruptcy because of two trips to the hospital. 45,000 people die every year in the states due to lack of health care.
Leonardo  - Why to have the Danish citizenship?   |2009-11-17 00:01:47
I don’t really understand why someone will like to have the Danish citizenship.

The only big difference between obtaining the Danish citizenship and obtaining the permanent residence permit in Denmark it is that with the citizenship one can vote in the national elections in Denmark (and of course you get a Danish passport).

Yes, I know, voting it is a very important thing and it is a fundamental part of any democracy. But it is just that I am here in Denmark for love.

I am here because I got married to a Danish girl and I have already my temporary residence permit that allows me to work in Denmark. After 7 years of living here I will obtain my permanent residence permit, and I think I will stop there.

I will not try to obtain the Danish citizenship and it is because I am Mexican and very happy and proud of it.

I live in Denmark and I very happy living here, but I am Mexican and will always be.

I will adapt here in Denmark perfectly, I will get good jobs, learn the language, etc, but my passport and my heart are from my home country 100%.

I don’t want to renounce to my present nationality, in order to obtain in the future the Danish citizenship.

My blog:
http://to-love-work-study-travel-denmark.blogspot.com/
 

 

 

 

 

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