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Front page News Commentary Expats - Denmark’s Working Poor

Expats - Denmark’s Working Poor

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Among expats living in Denmark, there seem to be three categories: transferred employees, traveling spouses, and those who come for love. For the first two groups of people – families that often arrive together – the transition to Danish life is eased by a corporate cushion, company-funded relocation services, and a network of spouses (usually wives) who do not work outside the home. For the rest of us who rely on a dual income, it isn’t so simple.

It is a popular myth that employment in Denmark is easy to obtain as long as you have a solid work history, a university degree or two, or even a simple willingness to work. ‘Everyone speaks English’, you are repeatedly told. Yet among those of us who moved here for our partners, it remains a struggle to find the most basic legal employment.

Often, we end up as Denmark’s working poor, struggling to find and maintain jobs as cleaning staff, restaurant workers, and postal service employees. Many well-off expats act enraged by our collective ‘underemployment’, but few in the corporate sector understand that many of us face constant rejection in our basic search for work. Often, we can’t even be called the ‘working poor’, for we have yet to find actual employment. I’m lucky; I’m a writer, and I can continue to write for North American publications and scrape in a bit of income as a freelancer. Many of my transplanted friends cannot even rely on that.

Even among other expats, there is a sense of disbelief when one cannot find a job. I’ve been told to my face by fellow Americans living in Denmark, ‘You have a Master’s degree. Surely you can find something.’ They may mean well, but it’s condescending and insulting to assume I’m not being honest about my struggle – one I share with many others. It is to easy forget – or completely ignore – that unless you take a company transfer or come to Denmark with a job waiting for you, securing a position without a mastery of the Danish language will be an uphill battle.

Expat spouses and employees of Danish companies are also exempt from the fees immigrants are forced to pay just to live together legally. A bank guarantee of 60,000 kroner required of all couples with one immigrating partner, forcing even the poorest couples to pay the government for the privilege to be together. As if the costs of moving abroad were not high enough, many of us go into debt or work overtime before arriving to pay the ‘family reunification’ fees associated with our immigration. My partner and I currently pay down monthly interest on a loan we will never actually cash out.

Few of us came to Denmark with a sense of entitlement. We merely wanted to live safely and be with our loved ones in the same place for an extended period of time. For people like me, being poor is nothing new. I grew up in a small Midwestern American town where car factories have shut down in record numbers over the past two decades. As a high school student, I worked thirty hours a week on top of school to save money to escape. Between my Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees, I amassed thousands of dollars worth of government loan debt, and I have no idea how I will pay it back. Before I moved to Denmark, I did not have health insurance. I sold nearly everything I owned to relocate, unable to afford the cost to ship my belongings. Yet even though I’m the most upwardly mobile person in my family, my definition of ‘poverty’ often doesn’t make sense to people with comfortable corporate careers – let alone to those who have always lived in a social democracy.

The economic shift since emigrating from the US isn’t drastic for me, but having a limited income is never easy. Those of us with solid relationships will survive the tough financial times until we can begin advancing here. Many of us will also continue to search for and find ways to take our Danish partners and leave.

Instead of focusing on integration bureaucracy, forced language comprehension, and handing out brochures for the same three job websites, Denmark would be well-advised to listen to its newcomers and our needs. Danes are quick to boast their English language skills; it shouldn’t come as a shock that our Danish partners would then be the ones to emigrate. In a country that seems to resent immigrants from any nation, it won’t take long until we begin asking our partners to try acclimating to our home countries instead. Denmark loses valuable contributing members of society when immigrants feel unwelcome, and our skills and work ethic are wasted because of sometimes non-existent language barriers. In my experience, it also causes the most patriotic Danes to reconsider their country’s attitudes about immigration and acceptance.

To people who believe immigrants should assimilate or leave, I say very sincerely: I suspect many of us would love to do the latter – if we could only afford it. 

Comments
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BABS  - Brilliant piece of writing.   |2009-08-28 01:02:02
Thankyou for this.
AnAfricanInDenmark  - True words   |2009-08-31 13:46:52
It is a sad truth and following on from the thread "Home sweet home?" elsewhere I can tell you that there seems to be a government endorsed action to rid Denmark of all non-Danes by manipulating the immigration process which now takes up to a year to finalise for Greencard Scheme applicants. The official excuse is that they are under-resourced yet I do not see any visible attempts at rectifying this.

Denmark for the Danes I suppose.
JFD  - Were you prepared?   |2009-08-31 15:22:17
This is a very well written article, but given that it comes from a professional writer it should be. So let me start with the assumption that what is written is true; dvs it is an accurate reflection of the situation. Therefore, I will not challenge what is said.
What I will challenge are all the expats who are un/under employed or can’t find proper employment that fits their background, with a “Woe-Is-Me” attitude. Specifically, I mean those with a Danish significant other who moved here because of that person and now can’t find work. You are the ones who read this article and screamed Hallelujah the loudest. It might be time for an attitude adjustment, because most likely you only have yourself to blame.
I have a Danish wife and was recruited by a Danish firm while living in the US. I was told specifically by the managing partner that he was able to convince his board (who preferred a Danish candidate) to hire me because “I demonstrated a desire to live here and had already learned most of the language and culture”. I started my interview with the Chairman and when he saw my bona fide effort to speak (albeit really bad) Danish, he was satisfied. He gave me the same line too, don’t worry ‘Everyone speaks English’ so you’ll be fine during the adjustment period.

OK, everyone CAN speak English... but that doesn’t mean that they WANT to.

(And by the way, when A Dane tells you most other Danes will want to speak to you in English so they can “practice” their skills, that is just them being polite to you. It’s a little white lie.)

So, if you have a Danish partner, how much Danish culture did you adopt and how much of the language did you learn before moving here? What pro-active measures did you take to prepare yourself for employability in Denmark? I’ll venture a guess and say very little.

Of course Danish firms want to hire Danes! There is nothing wrong with this. Danish is the language of that land and most professionals want to communicate in their native language regardless of how comfortable they are with English. When the job market is tipped in the employers’ favor like it has become recently, “fit” becomes the deciding factor among equally qualified applicants. Not your professional skills and experience, but how well you fit as a person in a company made of individual people. If your Danish language ability and adaptation of Danish culture is lacking, you just won’t fit it as well as a native Dane. You can’t blame employers for practicing this.

When you were doing career searches in your native country and were fortunate enough to land an interview. Did you not use conventional wisdom and research everything you could about the job, the interviewer, the company, its industry, osv? If so, then why did you not apply that same logic of preparation for employability in Denmark? Or did you assume that since you had international experience and could speak English that Danish companies would just love to hire you? I’ll be honest, when I did my first search (in English) from the US for a job in Denmark back in 2002, I had that attitude. I got a rude yet motivating awakening.

Ms. Shoot’s final line of the article ends with a sarcastic condemnation of ‘assimilate or leave’. I urge you to think just the opposite. Work as hard as you can to assimilate. Make up for lost time if you have known your Danish partner for years and only started learning Danish seriously BECAUSE you moved here. Contrary to popular belief, Danes are very welcoming of educated foreigners. I have said this before and I will repeat it here. In the seven years I have been visiting Denmark and the 1½ years I have lived here, I have never once been met with even a nasty look for being a foreigner. All it took was a little demonstration that I took the first step.
tomnashdk  - With All Due Respect, JFD   |2009-08-31 16:25:18
JFD, as someone who knows you and your situation, I think you do all ex-pats an extreme disservice with responses like this. I submit that you have not been in Denmark long enough to be expressing those opinions quite so strongly. I will not go into details, but I will say that as the one who was already living in Denmark and who provided you with the answers to your myriad of questions while you were still in the USA and considering coming here, I am extremely disappointed. The barriers exist, they are real, and that is in spite of language skills or the immigrant's attempts at integration. Danish attitudes towards foreigners have taken a very significant swing to the right within the last couple of years, and it is getting ugly. It is time for open and honest dialog, and you are not helping.
JFD   |2009-08-31 16:30:49
Fair enough Tom. You know I respect your opinion and value our friendship. But I hold true to what I wrote and hope we can agree to disagree.

However, please let me point out for the record that your help prior to our move was exceptional for practical details (find a bank, buying a house, cars, etc), but it did not involve a job search. I had already getten my job at that point. If anything, it is this exact type of assimilation research I was referring to in what I wrote.
tomnashdk   |2009-08-31 17:07:48
The statistics are that 60% of the foreign professionals who come to Denmark leave again within the first three years. The reasons are not always the same, but between a poor infrastructure for ex-pats family needs (including children's education in a language other than Danish), a lack of employment opportunities for spouses (which this article deals with), general discrimination against foreigners, salary and job discrimination against foreigners, and so on, not to mention the tax structure and the fact that foreigners do not qualify for many of the benefits those taxes support, this is not the ideal place for foreigners that many purport it to be. There is a serious problem, and it is finally being recognized by some forward-thinking Danes.

What needs to be done now is to list clearly and concisely what the problems are so they can be intelligently addressed, and not sweep them under the carpet or belittle them as "unprepared foreigners." As I have stated numerous times before, Denmark is at a crossroads, foreigners are the key to Denmark's continued success in the global economy in the future, and to dismiss the problems as the grumbling of a few ungrateful moaners does both the foreigners AND DENMARK a huge disservice.
andrew!  - Shouldn't denmark also be prepared?   |2009-08-31 21:02:45
From JFD's post, I can see a rich man is blaming the poor. Yes, maybe some of them really deserve it. But I don't believe most of them do, especially those experienced professionals that we are talk about here. Shouldn't Denmark also be prepared to embrace foreigners? Aren't the government crying for skillful professionals?

Wow, you can even get a job before moving to Denmark! How wonderful it is!
JFD   |2009-08-31 23:13:32
Nice try Andrew, but economic demographics have nothing to do with it.

You don't need money to make an effort to learn a language. A few dollars/pounds/marks/whatever for a book with a CD + will power & discipline is all it takes. You don't need money to send emails to potential employers and start networking from afar. You don't need money to contact recruiters and get your resumes out there. Keep in mind, my comment was directed only at those "experienced professionals" who have Danish partners and did very little in their home countries to prepare themselves for a future move and now complain when they get here about being behind the employment 8-ball.

You ask "Shouldn't Denmark also be prepared to embrace foreigners". What does this mean? Just what exactly do you want them to do? I got my Opholdstilladelse in 2½ weeks by filling out one form and a copy of my job contract, I got my CPR# two days after getting off the plane. Jyske Bank assigned us an English fluent bank advisor before we got here and then opened an account for me the same day I got my CPR number & approved me for a house and car loan with absolutely no credit history in the country what-so-ever! If this isn't both the Danish government and a Danish private sector company embracing a foreigner, then I don't know what is.

Your sarcastic remark about getting a job before moving here and how wonderful it is, is exactly my point. If most of the expats here with foreign partners had learned Danish, done a job search in Danish prior to moving, set-up informational interviews or went to networking events while in the country visiting family/on vacation, etc then they wouldn't be in the predicament they are in now. These activities are no different then what an experienced professional does to find a better job in their own country (minus a new language, of course)

Now with that said, tomnashdk brings up a few good points about the retention of foreigners, particularly in regards to the tax system penalizing us and more forward thinking Danes recognizing the importance of foreign labor. The tax system here is a hot button issue for me and the inequities it brings are reason I'll be part of the 60% he mentions. This item needs to be addressed above and beyond the 25% scheme in order to retain foreign skilled workers once they get here.

Lastly, I don't see the issue as US (expats) vs THEM (Danes & their government) as if it were a level playing field, which I am beginning to feel everyone else does. I am & always will be a guest in this country. You too. .. no matter how long you stay.
andrew!  - The barrier might be invisible, especially to thos   |2009-09-01 10:17:25
The barrier might be invisible, especially to those who already have a decent job. I am not going to analyze it here. I have limited time and my English might not be enough for that.

But I would like to just ask JFD: how do you compare the openness of the states and that of Denmark? I agree that Denmark is kind of ok in some aspects. But the preparedness should go far beyond easing the procedure of getting a CPR# and a bank account. Those are only the basic stuffs. It is about the attitude of the whole society. There is much more to be done. Would an american company prefer those form their own country so much, just like what the danes do? Would an american company requires you to adopt a US culture completely in order to get a job? Many US companies recruiting employees around the world without considering what kind of culture you have. I have been working in several countries, including some small countries like Singapore and Switzerland. None of them acts like the Danes.

I also agree the Danes can choose what to do. But our expats should also express our opinions from our perspective.
tomnashdk   |2009-09-01 12:28:21
JFD, you ask, "You ask "Shouldn't Denmark also be prepared to embrace foreigners". What does this mean?"

Let's start with a very good example - the fact that the waiting list in the Copenhagen area for a child who needs a place in an English-speaking International school is three years.

Not everyone is Danish married as you are, and not everyone's kids speak Danish. I know a Canadian couple who came here because he was heavily recruited by a software firm. His Canadian kids are being home-schooled by his Canadian wife, who also does not speak Danish, because they cannot get a place in international school for their kids. She is not working for two reasons - (1) she is forced into home schooling the kids. (2) she gave up trying to find a meaningful job in her field in Denmark because nobody wanted a foreigner, despite all the assurances that "everyone speaks English. So here we have a success story if you look only at the software developer husband, and yes they got their CPR numbers in two days, a bank account the next day, and so on. But if you look a little deeper at the price the rest of the family is paying what you see is a complete disaster and a struggle that is not worth it. Instead of two incomes they are down to one, she is going to have a "dead period" in her resume (CV) that may work against her later on back home, and their entire economy is going backwards compared to if they had just stayed home instead of believing the Danish hype.

As soon as he can gracefully extricate himself from his contract they are moving back to Canada.

So far the Danish solution is a whiney "Du skal lære dansk! Du skal lære dansk! Dit børn skal lære dansk!" (You must learn Danish. Your kids must learn Danish!) No, Denmark needs the Canadians more than the Canadians need Denmark. So the Canadians are going home in disgust, and Denmark loses. it will be extremely expensive to attract another qualified foreigner to replace the one who leaves.

This is not isolated case, and the lack of family support structure and the lack of a genuine willingness to help foreigners is only a small part of the problem. I can tell you from personal experience that salary discrimination against foreigners exists, as well as the Danish tendency to "hide behind the language" in office political situations instead of dealing with the situation professionally and openly. There is a general ingrained Danish attitude problem which also needs to be addressed. All of this contributes to the message, "You are welcome on our terms, but you are not really welcome."

Pointing fingers at the foreigners and saying, in effect, "You're stupid and did not prepare enough" is not an effective sales technique when a country is trying to attract desperately needed educated and qualified foreigners.

Integration of foreigners is a two-way street, and so far the signs say "Ensrettet." (One way.) THAT is what needs to change.
tomnashdk   |2009-09-01 14:51:41
damestjernelys I do not disagree that if a family is planning to stay for any significant length of time they should make an effort to learn the language and an effort to some measure of integration. No argument there. But dumping foreign kids directly into the Danish public school system is not the solution, either. My point is that there are not enough resources dedicated to providing a smooth transition for foreign children. However, looking at this specific problem in isolation is also not correctly addressing what chases foreigners out. This is but one of many problems that contribute to a less-than-welcoming total package. This total package is also not what is advertised.

Despite some Danes' beliefs, it is not the rest of the world that desperately wants to come to Denmark. It is Denmark (Danish business, actually) that is trying to sell itself to foreigners. The sales approach and the service after the sale completely stink. So foreigners get disillusioned and leave. Then Denmark wonders, "What are we doing wrong? Why are these people leaving our best-on-the-planet fantastic country?" People provide the answers, and Danes argue with the answers instead of listening with an open mind. Du-uh!
JFD  - Give me something I can use here   |2009-09-01 22:14:33
Andrew:
1st, your English is excellent, don’t sell yourself short.
2nd, good question. Yes I feel American companies are much more open minded, but that just has to do with America being such a demographically diverse country with citizens from all walks of life. But, it is such a big country that there are differences within its borders. For example, a foreigner might easily be able to find work in New York City and not be able to find the same in job in Huntsville, Alabama (no offense intended to anyone who might be from there). So making generalization on American companies is hard to do.

Dame:
Fair enough that not everyone has years to prepare. But at the risk of sounding even more arrogant than I already have come off, it wasn’t “luck” that I got my job and my transition was so easy. That is the entire point of my posting. I made my own “luck”, which is to say through hard work, pre-emptive language adoption and a little proactivity I avoided being behind the employment 8-ball. All I am trying to say, is that many of the professionally trained foreigners with Danish spouses that complain that DK is unwelcoming might have avoided their situation if they planned ahead. That’s it.


Tom:
I never called nor implied anyone was “stupid” so please don’t put those words in my mouth. “Unprepared”, yes, but not stupid. The case study of your Canadian friend is a case study in unpreparedness. If they wanted their kids to have an English education (and I agree with Dame, they should learn Danish since they live in Denamrk), then why did he accept the job and move without securing education for his kids first? Regardless, these are not the people I was targeting in my original comment anyway.

I know the entire topic of skilled foreign labor in DK is an important topic for you. But I would say that you are presenting it as a macroeconomic problem when it is, in fact, a microeconomic problem. This materializes in the rather arrogant statements you make such as “Denmark needs the Canadians more than the Canadians need Denmark” and “foreigners are the key to Denmark's continued success in the global economy in the future”. Do you have solid economic data or analysis to back these up bold statements? Yes, perhaps a few individual firms will suffer in competitiveness like your Canadian friend’s company, but on a country-wide scale Denmark will continue to prosper if it maintains the status quo.

I have read you and many others freely state the problems over and over again. What I haven’t read yet is anyone offer PRACTICAL solutions beyond empty, Obama-esque “time for open and honest talks”. IB schools have a long waiting list, Fine, they do in every country. Do you want Denmark to subsidize IBs across the country so no one is ever more than 30 minutes away from one. “Danish attitudes towards foreigners have taken a very significant swing to the right within the last couple of years, and it is getting ugly” (I disagree, but) Fine, do you want the Danish government to pass a law making Foreigner Sensitivity Training mandatory? Come on, propose a solution we can use to these problems.

Lastly, I am not doing “all expats and extreme disservice” with this thread. If anything, I am offering sound advice to anyone with a Danish partner considering moving here in the future who reads this publication. They best advice I can see you offering expats is to walk around with the attitude that they are the savior of Denmark’s economic future and that despite being unemployed Denmark needs them more than they need Denmark. Should they use this line during their next job interview?

Lingus: That was a nice post, thank you for communicating it.
Lingus  - damestjernelys - tomnashdk - have to jump in her   |2009-09-01 22:01:01
Hey you two...

Here is a nice success story (part of the solution).

When we arrived in Denmark my 10 year old (at the time) son didn't speak any Danish...even though I begged his dad to teach him over the years.

He was put into a modtagelsesklasses (intergration class). This was taught in a normal Danish public school where him and children from other countries were taught in English in separate classes.

It was a lovely time for him as the teachers gradually taught the kids Danish, took them on field trips, taught them about Danish culture etc. My son subsequently learnt about his new country, learnt a new language and enjoyed meeting new cultures. He moved on from that school and class setting after 5 months and was put into a mainstream Danish school.

He has totally integrated and I still keep his mother tongue alive and well at home...and yes, even though the education system is less strict he seems to be very happy and adjusted and hasn't skipped a beat.

Although I agree that I'm not totally satisfied by everything in Denmark I felt that the school process of integration was handled very well.

Don't keep your children at home - integrate them.....won't hurt them to form friendships with their adopted countries, even if it's for a short period.... :-)
tomnashdk  - John   |2009-09-01 22:47:30
>>Do you have solid economic data or analysis to back these up bold statements?>do you want the Danish government to pass a law making Foreigner Sensitivity Training mandatory?
tomnashdk  - AH! How frustrating   |2009-09-02 08:46:11
Sorry John, I typed out a nice long eloquent response to all of your questions and the CPH Post web process destroyed it. I don't have time to type it all back in because as a result of my "Obama-esque" rants here and on foreignersindenmark.dk I have been invited to participate in some organizations that are working to change the Danish laws and improve conditions for foreigners here.

The economic data is available on CPH Post, Børsen, JP, and others.

International schoold iin Midt-Jylland? No, of course not. International schools in Copenhagen and the Jylland golden triangle? You betcha.

Pass a law to require foreigner sensitivity training? No, but how about a television campaign that shows foreigners in a positive light and contributing to Denmark's bottom line, as well as highlighting their difficulties trying to fit in, instead of "Lene parties" to find us Danish friends? If the Danish cops can waste money on "Ta' ti af farten" tv campaigns the money could certainly be found to educate Danes that the vast majority of foreigners are not muslim extremists trying to destroy the country.

I am not a guest in this country. I have a permanent residency which I earned, I speak the language, I pay ALL of the taxes, and I am going to do something about the problem. What about you?

Off to my meeting...
JFD   |2009-09-02 11:11:09
Tom: I am going to have to bow out of this thread now. Helle is having surgery today (to repair the one they botched in June) and with the boys and all I'll be out of touch for a few days. We'll pick this up the next time we come to town. Take care.
deka  - And the debate continues   |2009-10-30 20:05:44
.Brittany is not only a good writer, she is absolutely correct in her assessment. I’m disappointed to hear that there are still ex pats that have been living here and either doesn’t see it, or won’t acknowledge the state of affairs in Denmark as it relates to foreigners. That a VERY small minority of expats or “foreigners” have been diligent and above all …lucky enough to get a decent job in a short period of time does not mean they are knowledgeable enough to make blanket statements about how others are not trying enough, or have a wrong approach to finding gainful employment in Denmark.
I have been observing and researching the intergration issue in Denmark for over 17 years,, and the reality is,,,, Denmark is EXTREMLY prejudicial towards foreigners, especially those seeking employment. Come on,,, don’t you read the papers, don’t you listen to the news, the debates, the constant negative portrayal of foreigners in the press? And the interesting part of this is,,, the focus is on the Arab and Muslim communities,,but the reality is,,its ALL foreigners,,doesn’t matter if your American, Canadian, German, Austrian…. The treatment is still one of exclusion and marginalization. There is a good reason why so many end up leaving with or without their families, simply to be able to survive and maintain some degree of dignity. Do you know how children of another ethnic background than Danish are treated compared to Danes? I’m talking about born and raised here,,, they are not even referred to as a “Danish mix” , they are referred to as foreigners. How do you think they feel when they are expected to be the same as their Danish counterparts, but are treated ,..and labeled as “foreigners”
The comments about “being better prepared” with the language …oh please….. If you’re not Danish, sure it’s great if you speak the language, maybe youll get a better position at Fakta. I know countless people from many parts of the western world, VERY highly educated, very “employable” , who struggle for years to find some employment , and guess how many of them don’t make it, lose their will to keep fighting and lose their family in the process. For those of us , as mentioned in one of the comments , who come here because of a mate and family , the reality of how it is for foreigners in Denmark is painfully clear. The kind of open and outward discrimination that has been and continues to be practiced is something I never thought I would experience in a country so “advanced”.
Do you have any idea how many highly educated “foreigners “are born, raised, and educated in Denmark and still can’t get employment in their field simply because of their heritage? Do you really think all the menial jobs, pizza places, taxi drivers, etc etc,,are all lower educated individuals? Guess again. And as for the obstacle of the Danish language,,, yes it helps and is of course necessary, but at the end of the day…. It doesn’t make much of a difference.
For the record I speak fluent Danish along with 3 other languages, have 3 children born here with a Danish woman , have been director of European operations for one of USA’s largest company’s in the field, have numerous degrees,… but that doesn’t help.
So before you go painting pretty pictures about how others should just try harder,,, etc etc,,, try doing a little research and see what really going on.
We can agree on one thing,..Denmark is a wonderful country and I have always admired Danes for their openness and down to earth attitude. The well structured and safe society which places emphasis on the population’s quality of living and living standards,,,, as long as you’re Danish.
The status quo has bothered and haunted me for many years, and I have decided that I will no longer be a part of the problem, but rather a part of the solution. So it has been and is my commitment to get involved in helping the intergration process in Denmark and in this way, not only make a difference, but also help to pave the way for my children and their children, so they can actually be treated equally and be proud to say, they are Danish.
I believe that Denmark can make this happen, and once again be a trend setter for other European nations to follow. But it takes the political will to solve it, the governments support to endorse it, and a committed team to execute it. But before ANY “real , significant and lasting “ intergration can be effective here, it takes realizing and admitting that the problem is real. As long as one is in denial, the problem can never be truly fixed.
And as some clever person once said,…
Ignoring the facts,,,, don’t change the facts!
npandjmclay  - Self-pity?   |2009-10-30 21:19:35
Do I detect a note of self-pity here? Cleverly disguised with rational explanations but nevertheless still apparent. "Denmark would be well-advised to listen to its newcomers and our needs." Why? You don't contribute to the wealth of the country, do you? And why should Danes use English with people they don't particularly warm to? Do Americans speak Spanish to make mexicans feel good? I'm afraid the problem here is in the eye of the beholder.
magic1964  - whiners...   |2009-10-31 09:31:00
Im French, speak terrible Danish and I never felt discriminated......
Some whiners are paranoiac and feel discriminated or victims of racism no matter what....
You find this people every where, usally they have to much time to think about themselfs....
npandjmclay  - Reverse the rôles   |2009-10-31 11:16:13
I think some of Brittany's sympathisers should imagine a Dane in Their own country. Would people bend over backwards to employ him/her even though his background meant he could speak their langauge pretty well? Why would they? No, of course they wouldn't. And it's the same in Denmark.
deka  - Self pity, whiners, and reverse the roles   |2009-10-31 15:07:41
I dont know what blinders you have on, but they are damn good .
These are things I would expect to hear from some danes, those who have no clue what is really going on regaring intergration.

Its a pity really,,,, not only is it an ignorant and uninformed attitude, but more than anything else,,,it keeps things just as they are,,,,,, and the bottom line is,,it doesnt help Denmark, nor the people involved in it.

Just amazing how misguided so many people are,,,, but i guess its easier than examining the facts.
Must be nice living with blinders on.....
npandjmclay  - deka, no   |2009-10-31 22:06:58
It's your superior attitudes that cause you to criticise Danes as you do. You have to realise that you are not half as special as you believe and Denmark does not need the kind of transformation you have in mind.
gulrezdoc  - Agree   |2009-11-01 02:13:03
Had been waiting for my wife's visa to be processed since last 4 months now. It takes one and a half hour just to reach the counter and every time they have nothing to say.

I guess its time for me to go back.
npandjmclay  - "Integration"   |2009-11-01 11:18:09
The complainers want '"integration" (note the English spelling is different from the Dubya version). In fact they do not integrate, they sit in the 'bleachers' and complain about the referee.
JFD   |2009-11-02 10:37:33
Deka: I actually took the trouble to read all 813 words of your disconnected rant twice and could deduce only a few meaningful points. So, let me reiterate a few of my own that perhaps your blinders prevented you from seeing.

“a VERY small minority of expats or “foreigners” have been diligent and above all …lucky enough to get a decent job in a short period of time does not mean they are knowledgeable enough to make blanket statements about how others are not trying enough, or have a wrong approach to finding gainful employment in Denmark.”

- Keep in mind, my comment was directed only at those "experienced professionals" who have Danish partners and did very little in their home countries to prepare themselves for a future move and now complain when they get here about being behind the employment 8-ball. – To Dame 2009 09 01.

- “it wasn’t “luck” that I got my job and my transition was so easy. That is the entire point of my posting. I made my own “luck”, which is to say through hard work, pre-emptive language adoption and a little proactivity I avoided being behind the employment 8-ball. All I am trying to say, is that many of the professionally trained foreigners with Danish spouses that complain that DK is unwelcoming might have avoided their situation if they planned ahead. That’s it” To Andrew 2009 08 31. These are hardly blanket statements.

”Denmark is EXTREMLY prejudicial towards foreigners… the reality is,,its ALL foreigners,,doesn’t matter if your American, Canadian, German, Austrian….”
- And you accuse me/us of making blanket statements. Here’s an accusation: You’re a self righteous hypocrit. I suppose in your mind you are qualified to strongly and negatively label an entire country because of 17 years of study, but the experiences of others with a different opinon and/or experience have no meaning. So allow me to use a rather adolescent and unintelligent quote that captures the moment nonetheless. ”Oh please”

“The comments about “being better prepared” with the language …oh please….. If you’re not Danish, sure it’s great if you speak the language, maybe youll get a better position at Fakta. I know countless people from many parts of the western world, VERY highly educated, very “employable” , who struggle for years to find some employment”
1st – I work in private equity
2nd – Read my posts again, and you’ll see that the preparation I was referring to was not just limited to language. Most of the preparation I was referring to was employment related, job searching, building up a network, etc. See, if you had taken the trouble by “doing a little research and see what really going on”, you wouldn’t have made such a wonderfully immature and incomplete statement. I would think as a Director of European Operations for an industry leading company, you wouldn’t have missed such a thing.
3rd – I am sure I (and many others on this site) know equally as many westerners who have found work in DK.


“The kind of open and outward discrimination that has been and continues to be practiced is something I never thought I would experience in a country so “advanced”… For the record I speak fluent Danish along with 3 other languages, have 3 children born here with a Danish woman , have been director of European operations for one of USA’s largest company’s in the field, have numerous degrees,… but that doesn’t help… but also help to pave the way for my children and their children, so they can actually be treated equally and be proud to say, they are Danish”

AND YET THE PROBLEM IS THE DANES, NOT YOU. I find this amazing because as I “have said this before and I will repeat it here. In the seven years I have been visiting Denmark and the 1½ years I have lived here, I have never once been met with even a nasty look for being a foreigner”. I am clearly not the mark of perfection that you are, and yet the same ”EXTREMELY prejudicial” Danes have welcomed me and my two Texan kids with open arms. They even are considered Danish. How lucky for me, how lucky for magic1964 too. Perhaps we just live in the only two towns that aren’t filled with prejudicial, foreigner-hating Danes. Maybe our neighbors, friends and colleagues are the admirable Danes with openness and a down to earth attitude. I suppose you were just unlucky for 17 years.

I’ll venture a guess that your integration problems are occurring/have occurred because you just aren’t a nice, likeable guy. I think np and Magic have you pegged with the use of words/phrases such as “self-pity, whiner, paranoiac, superior attitude, complainer…” But we can all rest assured that after 17 years, you have now become part of the solution… whatever the heck that means. I am neither. I am just a guest here and content to be that way for as long as I stay.
bored!   |2009-11-02 12:05:03
I've read this website for a while now and really enjoy reading everyone's comments.

I can't say I have any idea how to solve most of these problems. But there is one way to solve the job issues and its to LEARN DANISH.

I've have first hand experience being on the other side of a language barrier for work. I worked in Construction Engineering Recruitment in Australia prior to coming to Denmark. At the time, Australia was in desperate need for qualified engineers. Many a resume from highly qualified people came in from India, Philipines, etc however their English wasn't good enough, so they couldn't get a job.

So I ask everyone to ask themselves the question, If someone with your exact qualifications and experience was in your country and couldn't speak the native/company language, would they get that job?

If you can say yes, i'd move home as your country is obviously paradise full of open and understanding people where communication is not important.

If your in a rush to learn Danish, try Sprogcenter ia in KBH NV, website is www.sprogcenter-ia.dk. Its an intensiv course that takes only 10-12 months to complete

For those who can speak Danish and still can't find a job, maybe its your attitude. You'd be surprised how obvious your negativity can be even in the writing of your applications.
npandjmclay  - Oh Brittany! Are you there?   |2009-11-02 13:43:03
isn't it about time you replied to your critics?
magic1964  - Expats menopause ?   |2009-11-02 14:13:10
I think a lot of you guys are between 35 and 50 years old, and you have your own menopause, I mean your midlife crisis....and you blame on Danish society.
But it would be the same if you were still living in your own native country, you would blame on something else....
magic1964   |2009-11-02 16:02:26
Well maybe Danish who pay a lot of taxes to keep up a good welfare start feeling pissed off with immigrants who commit crimes, burn schools, kindergarde, throw stones to Police, Doctors, nurses, preast etc etc......and yes maybe the good pay for the bads....
 

 

 

 

 

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