Take part in the on-going debate over the quality of life for foreign professionals in Denmark

Last week's story about the establishment of a new state-funded network for expatriates has generated heated debate about the pros and cons of living in Denmark.

How do you feel about living here? What would be your advice to people planning on coming here to live and work?

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The Copenhagen Post

Business and Economy Minister Lene Espersen (left) and Managing Director of the Danish Chamber of Commerce Katia K. Østergaard during the launch of the network (Photo: Pamela Juhl)

New network to welcome foreigners 'home'

Giving foreign employees a warm welcome and a social network is seen as the best way to keep them in Denmark for the long-term

A 4.5 million kroner initiative aimed at retaining foreign professionals living in Denmark was unveiled by the Business and Economy Ministry today. The network, the first publicly funded organisation of its kind in Denmark, will be operated by a consortium that consists of The Copenhagen Post, the Danish Chamber of Commerce and the Danish Bankers Association.

The network, known as the National Network for Foreign Employees, is part of a wider multi-million kroner national strategy to increase awareness of the country internationally and will aid foreign professionals and their companies navigate the relocation and integration process.

According to Business and Economy Minister Lene Espersen, doing this will lead to more foreign professionals staying in Denmark for longer periods of time by helping them and their spouses to deal with practical issues associated with living here.

‘A lot of companies have problems retaining foreign professionals because Denmark isn’t really geared to attracting people from abroad,’ Espersen said. ‘Denmark has a lot to offer, but we need to be better at showing that to foreigners and helping them so they feel like staying.’

The Copenhagen Post was chosen to be a part of the consortium that was granted the tender to operate the network given its role as a source of information for and about the expatriate community.

‘It’s great that public officials are finally recognising that we need something like this,’ said Jesper Nymark, chief executive of The Copenhagen Post. ‘We’re glad to be a part of it, but really it’s just important that it gets done, otherwise people will find some place else where it is easier to live.’

The centrepiece of the network will be the website expatindenmark.com, which has been offering advice and news for expats since last year. Over the next two years, the Expat in Denmark network will add a number of new activities that will include an on-line helpline, regional and local networks and programmes to help spouses find work.

In addition, the network will also organise professional and social events and serve as a clearing house of information for companies and public officials seeking to hire and retain foreign professionals.

Despite continuing job losses in 2009 and into 2010, Espersen described the network as a way of ‘thinking ahead’ in order to head off a situation that could see as many as 40,000 unfilled highly skilled jobs by 2015.

‘We need smart, qualified people from abroad, but more than that we need them to stay here,’ she said.

Comments

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JFD - No social network will help

|2009-03-19 00:35:15

Well, well, well, what a bru-ha-ha we have going here. So, please allow me to elaborate. I am an American married to a Dane; we has lived in DK for over a year. I promised my spouse when we got married years ago that we’d move here one day, so when I found the right career opportunity we did it. I learned Danish before I moved here in order to be prepared and even though I speak it to them, yes, as a society, Danes lack any sense of common courtesy… but it’sno big deal.
However, on a one-on-one basis, I have found Danes to be extremely welcoming, fun and inviting. I have never once been insulted by a Dane for being a foreigner or even an innuendo of an insult. Therefore, I would venture a guess that anyone who generalizes Danes as closed or unfriendly has either asked for that treatment or was just the recipient of an isolated incident… no offense intended to any of the posters here.
What is to be resented is that as a foreigner we carry a tax burden that we do not benefit from nearly as much as native Danes. Therefore, since the article which started all this was about a government funded initiative for a problem that doesn’t really exist and already has a private sector solution, the irony is spectacular.
The tax system here (and not just the income taxes but the entire tax infrastructure) is so skewed out of our favor that it is to be just that RESENTED. For example, most of us will not likely retire here, so why are we forced to pay AM tax? I am not getting social security credit from my AM tax so I am losing out. Where is the tax treaty to solve this problem? I spent years working on and paying off on my beautiful car in the US. Why should I now pay 180% of it’s value just to use it here in Denmark for a few years? All of this enormous amount of money will be completely wasted. I had to give it up. The list goes on…
So what it boils down to is that a foreigner has to either dramatically decrease his or her quality of life or overhaul their value system to want to live, work and stay her. Neither option is very welcoming.
If the Danish government wants to welcome highly skilled workers, do it through their wallets, not their superficial welcoming matts. After all, they are highly skilled workers being targeted, which carries the assumption they are career and income earning-oriented people, so incentivize them where it counts!

Transition - Good Initiative but how?

|2009-03-11 17:35:14

Being one of these "skilled workers", I have heard various reasons why foreigners leave and why foreigners stay. Integration and lack of social network are just two of many determining factors.

This article prompts me to ask further questions. How will the Ministry attempt to improve integration and network problems?
To what degree can they do this? Is this initiative enough to counter the negative effects of other factors such as taxes, weather, language barriers, racism and the anti-foreigner sentiment of some segments of the Danish society? What about the timing? In times when Danes are retrenched and top taxes are proposed to be reduced, would their anger not be targetted at foreigners who take the jobs and pay less taxes?

Personally, I have missed the boat on this. Integration was very hard, social network consists mainly of other foreigners, taxes paid but getting nothing much in return - no kids, no sickness, no social benefits and lots of racist verbal abuse. I look forward to say "farvel", throw a big farewell party. I would, by then, taler dansk, ate all the open sandwich for this lifetime and remember the good times I have had.

Copenhagen to me is a good experience for a limited period of time but not more. The Danish People's Party makes it clear - Denmark is for Danes - not foreigners.

All-in-all, a good initiative from the ministry! Now let's see what Miss Pia K. has to say to this.

Reluctant Mermaid - It Wont Make a Bit of Difference

|2009-03-23 23:03:12

I am white, middle-class, educated, financially independant and married to a Dane and have lived here for several years. I speak, read and write Danish. I will never feel "at home" here.

The Danes have absolutely no interest in integrating with foreigners and are deeply suspicious of anything they perceive to be non-Danish. They are oblivious to anyone outside their immediate personal space (hence their staggering ability to push-in in queues, not say "tak" when doors are held open for them and to drive through zebra crossings despite legions of small children waiting patiently to cross!)

Any foreign national moving here who thinks that they are going to be met by a warm smile, friendly chit-chat and an invitation to a Dane's home will be left seriously disappointed.

Add to that taxation, car prices and supermarkets that would not be out of place in the Eastern Bloc and the chances of holding onto well-informed, sophisticated foreign labour become as slim as the little mermaid's tail.

..... I feel much better now.

ShellyWilson

|2009-03-12 05:23:49

Well, gosh. As a US citizen soon to be a resident of Denmark, these comments really make me feel warm and fuzzy. It seems to be all I hear: the Danes are cold; the Danes don't want you here; you will be miserable.

Thank goodness for the nice weather in Copenhagen, or I might truly be dreading this move!

Cheers to the government and partners for trying to move forward and create a more globally attractive environment.

chris

|2009-03-12 09:44:22

I don't know what people are complaining about. I LOVE living and working in Denmark. Okay, you'll never, ever be a Dane, not even if you get citzenship, but if you wanted to blend in, why did you move to a foreign country.
Great things about Denmark:
1) Terrific family values. Probably the only place in the world where a woman can have a career and children and not feel like she's neglecting one or the other.
2) Danes are incredibly fair. Yes, there is some racism - but you'll get that anywhere. It's an Anglo thing to focus on what people say rather than what they do, and the Danish cultural tradition of treating people equitably vastly overrides any anti-foreign sentiment they have. They WANT you to try and assimilate.
3) Danish work culture is awesome. You have cake every week with your coworkers and bond with them - part of Danish "samarbejde."
4) Every human being is treated like a human being. EVERYONE. Danes spend more money on real foreign aid than anyone, and all workers have rights. That's really cool; I never feel like my success and wealth is at the cost of somebody else's unhappiness.
5) Ytringsfrihed is a great concept. You never feel like you should be afraid to respectfully provide your opinion, even to your superiors.
6) Danes don't suck up to people. They will tell you what they think of you. It can be akward at first - especially to an American - but I find it refreshing.
7) Shopping here is fine, the produce and meat is unequaled in quality, and if you can't get something you miss - like English-language books - your foreign spending power is enormous, so you can just get it off of Amazon or something like that.

There's a ton of other stuff I could write, but this is the short list. I'm an American with a PhD, and I hope to live in Denmark permanently. It upsets me that people complain about such trivial problems in Denmark - like the weather, which does, in fact, stink every month except May and June - when overall it's such a terrific place to live and work. If you don't like it, go home. There's plenty more of us who love Denmark who can come fill your place.

babdk - DENMARK IS AN EXCITING PLACE TO LIVE AND WORK

|2009-03-13 01:32:02

I think Denmark is a great place to live and work. I have been living here for the past seven years. I studied here and now work as an engineer.

Granted, there are negatives here just like in our own countries but the job market is fairly open and the people are generally nice. To be happy here depends largely on we the professionals expecially how open minded we are. Danes do not generally make you their freind in the first few days except of acourse during party times. However, once they get to know you and find out you are a nice and honest guy, they will love you almost forever and it may hardly come into their mind that you are an alien.

I think if one is open minded and ready to overlook the basic negativities which we all have in our own countries, we will be able to enjoy this country and its people.

The tax is very high and we would be happy if something could be done about that but we shouldn't forget that it helps keep the number of poor people low in the country compared to our own countries, plus excellent infrastructure.

chris

|2009-03-13 08:49:11

I have to reply to that previous post. How can you say that about Danish meat? Try this experiment: buy yourself a Bornholm freerange chicken. Sprinkle on a little salt, pepper and sage and roast it. Taste it and tell me that's not the finest thing you've ever eaten. Danish cornfed chicken is juicy and delicious. Danish pork is lean and flavorful. In the summertime, Danish tomatoes are beautiful and carefully packed, cucumbers are wonderful... delicious little shrimp from Greenland... and anything exotic, like antelope or wild boar you can get at a specialty shop. I even tried horse once! And you get foods from all over the world: Chilean blueberries in the winter, fat, wrinkly Spanish lemons.

And I never have had a problem with the buses; I take the A1 every morning and it was only late once and that was because the road was blocked by some idiot in a car who drove their car into a cartrap.

I keep seeing people complaining about cars. Well, I don't own a car and I don't want one. I find the Danish mass transit system clean and pleasant. I love the intercity trains with the lady who comes with a cart of hot coffee, magazines and candy - it feels very cozy. Cars destroy the environment and make people fat - get on a bike, walk, and/or take mass trans.

I also don't see what people are complaining about when they say people don't invite them to things. I'm always invited to parties, and I find Danes, while not "warm", a reserved sort of friendly.

Has it ever occured to any of you that maybe your problem is your attitude? Maybe if you started appreciating Denmark the Danes would be more friendly towards you? Because nobody likes it when someone obviously disdains their country. And it doesn't matter if you don't say it out loud - people can tell.

You will have a hard time living like an American in Denmark - beef prices are high, car prices are very high, and it's expensive to eat out. But I love the Danish way of life. Denmark values the community over the individual, and I love that. I love feeling like I contribute to something bigger, and I'm part of a series of teams of different sizes - work teams, play teams, the Greater Copenhagen team, the Danish team. America values the individual over the community. I respect that some people like that better than what goes on here in Denmark, but if you feel that way, stop complaining and leave. The Danes were gracious enough to let you in, that you don't appreciate their culture or ways is not their fault.

kingkongcopenhagen - Wrong priority

|2009-03-14 12:22:04

Instead of spending 4.5 million kroner to bring more people here, it appears that what they ought to have done with the money was buy all you brokhoveder (that's cry babies if you haven't bothered to learn Danish) home.

Spending money to help people like you is a waste. Because nothing is going to help if you are genetically inclined to complaining. If you were in Australia, you'd complain about vicious wildlife. If you were in the Emirates, it'd be too hot. If you were in the US, there would be too many superficial fat people. If you were in France, you'd probably call their national pride "snobby patriotism". If you were in your native country, you'd probably be unhappy about living there too.

I'm really sorry to hear that you people live such terrible lives here. But, one thing you might not be aware of since your self-pity has obviously mutated into a hatred of Danes that cuts you off from any sort of personal/social contact with them, is that they complain about EXACTLY the same things you do ... but they are also happy.

It's called making the most of your situation. Enjoy your life, don't complain about it.

Reluctant Mermaid - If I may be so bold ...

|2009-04-09 01:56:58

Whilst the "If you don't like it, go home!" response is an understandable (if somewhat predictable) knee-jerk reaction to some of the previous posts, it could also be seen as an indicator of the type of 'wall' that foreigners in Denmark are up against.

Contrary to what the poster (you know who you are!) might think, there are many of us "immigrants" who HAVE, in fact, made great efforts to integrate in Denmark - linguistically, socially and professionally.

If I may be so bold as to illustrate with an example:

Once upon a time ... in an effort to get to know the children and parents at my children's school, I arranged an "overnight" for all the girls in my daughter's class (9 of them). They duly arrived on the Saturday morning - having been blown in on a fresh morning breeze (no parents having materialised at this point). Having fed, watered and entertained them for the best part of 2 days, we (Mr. Viking and I) waited on the parents to collect their respective offspring. However, as the number of children began to diminish, it slowly dawned on us that the parents - instead of coming up to the door to collect the fruit of their womb(s) - were, in fact, parked up the road and TEXTING their children to come out to their cars! No attempt would be made at a courteous "thank you for looking after my child for the weekend". In the end, one brave soul did make it to our door ... but we ate her liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

Now it is, selvfølgelig, your right to say what you want about how our "self-pity has obviously mutated into a hatred of Danes that cuts you off from any sort of personal/social contact with them" but, once you have taken a chill-pill and a large glass of Gammel Dansk, please also remember that it is 'our' right to tell it as we see it.

p.s. I realise that I have set myself up for a new lecture on how "it is beter to give than receive" and how I "should not do nice things and expect thanks for them - service being a reward all of its own".

Spare me.

kingkongcopenhagen

|2009-03-15 11:52:01

Sorry Reluctant Mermaid.

I guess I was getting a little preachy and predictable. I just felt people's criticisms were also predictable.

I apologise to you and damestjernelys if I went over the line. I recognise there is an element of truth in what you all say - and I have met plenty of people with poor manners here, so unfortunately your story doesn't surprise me. What did Mr Viking have to say about his ill-mannered countrymen?

For me, I guess that maybe after eight years of trying to assimilate, I decided that being an 'obvious' immigrant has its advantages. Maybe it's like having divorced parents. I can love the two, but that doesn't mean that I'm not above playing the two cultures off against each other depending on my needs.

PS: Gammel Dansk makes me vomit.

Reluctant Mermaid

|2009-04-09 01:56:01

Dear Kingkongcopenhagen

Absolutely no need to apologise – but thank you for taking my post in the spirit it was intended.

You are, of course, right when you say that you feel people's criticisms are also very predictable. “Dane Bashing” is an easy trap to fall into and it only takes a quick read of the international newspapers to see that the grass is not necessarily greener “at home” (or anywhere else for that matter). To be honest, my one real bone of contention where the Danes are concerned is their complete lack of “common courtesy” (I spend more time than would be considered healthy bellowing “selv tak!” at Danes as they stream through doorways – held open by me – without so much as a measly “tak” nor glance in my direction). The Danes don’t need a National Network for Foreign Employees – they need a crash course in etiquette.

To pick up on your “Divorced Parents” simile, I have decided forthwith to try living by your creed. If Papfar Danmark cannot give me what I need, I shall just need to ask Mother England …

juliolema - Not the manners, at least to me.

|2009-03-15 22:26:20

Sorry, it is not the manners. However "finesse" is not the first word that I would connect with "Danes", this is the way they are. It is their essence and therefore needs to be accepted "as is" - they are polite, their weird way, though I read the story about the parents texting their children and I feel like slapping my Danish colleagues (may it be they did not want to disturb?)

What is it then? In my opinion it is not the essence of Denmark, but the way it is run. Examples:

- Taxes: I knew they were high, I was ready for that, but I could not imagine they would be SO irritating. F.x. Tax on your work phone is adding insult to injury!

- the health system (and the competence of its professionals) makes me miss my underveloped Spain. My wife gave birth here by an unnecessary C-section ("ultrasounds are expensive") and would have been sent home after 2 days (!). The anecdote: a few hours after the surgery, with a fresh scar on her belly, she was taken for an x ray and asked by the technician if she though she could be pregnant.

- the transportation is simply too bad for a country that takes pride in public services. Same goes for road condition.

- efficiency: I have never seen so many errors in banks, bills, payrolls, etc. Every 2-3 months I get my 2,000 DKK surprise with a Beklager letter.

- How can an mayor of integration shut down the best Danish language school in the country? If it does not play by the rules, take over it, but do not close it!!

I came here with high expectations, now I am considering to get back. Please spare me the "others will come". That is actually the problem. They will not.

tom1980 - been there man!

|2009-03-16 22:40:03

damestjernelys...if it helps I know exactly what you are saying. Im nervous about shopping and have given up having contact of any kind with locals. There are some nice ones, but I can count those on one hand.

Last month I was walking back to my flat minding my own business. A lady shouted at me 3 times. Why I dont know.

Ive been shouted at in shops, ignored, pushed, shoved, ordered around. you name it. Last night I stood up on the plane ,en route to cph, so that 2 danes could sit down. They pushed me out the way, hit me with their hand luggage and ignored me.

And its not just me. A swede friend got told to f.o. back to sweden last week whilst driving.

Last month I went to Malmo. I was ready for the worst but pleasantly surprised. I could actually be "me" again. I could chat to people without feeling like I was comitting a crime.

My advice is, take the money and then run! :). A lot of danes here are repressed and think like computers. They self rate themselves as the happiest people in the world. If that's the case why are they so angry, so repressed and anti social?

For anyone who wants to tell me to go and learn Danish I say this: communication isnt all about words. Its a glance, a look, an action, inaction, body language.

An anthropologist would have a field day here :).

Good luck!

bob	\|2009-03-17 13:26:12

I am an English guy working and living here in Copenhagen for 4 years. I moved to Denmark from Germany after 8 years ( previously I have worked/lived in Cyprus, Mauritius and Hong Kong). I make this latter point as I would like to emphasize that this is not my first experience of living outside of Britain.

Sadly, I can only agree with many of the previous comments of how unhelpful and unfriendly the Danish are. I have employed several Norwegians and Swedish people since working here and they also think that Danes are "selfish and arrogant". All of the Swedes and Norwegians went home after 2 years of working here. When they wished to communicate with the Danes they had to speak in English to be understood.!. If other Scandinavians share these views it does not bode well for the Danish. Can all people be so wrong in their thinking when these are consistent themes ?.

I have read a few times that the result of some survey's revealed that the Danes are the happiest nation in Europe, what was not widely reported is that they are also the users of most anti-depressents. A "strong link" or pure coincidence?

It still rankles me that Danes can not understand why, after 4 years of living here, I can not speak fluent Danish. The Danes are constantly exposed to English in the cinemas, music, TV, newspapers and anywhere else you would like to mention.

Surprise, surprise 101% of schools elsewhere do not teach Danish. Wake-up Denmark I can survive in most places speaking only English (but I can also speak German and French). I suggest that all of you "home grown" xenophobes, try to travel and work worldwide by just speaking Danish !.

The best thing that could happen in Denmark is mixed relationships and an enlargement of your gene pool. The result could be a nation of nicer people !.

kingkongcopenhagen

|2009-03-17 21:55:42

damestjernelys -

It's different from care packages (which I am still giddy about getting, even though I am a grown man).

I am talking about switching between cultures and languages as best suits the situation. I play the immigrant when being an immigrant scores points. (I was a real hit during the election.) I play the Dane on the job or when socialising with people I don't know well.

Most of all though, I just play myself - especially with people I have personal relationship with. Most people seem to appreciate that.

bob	\|2009-03-17 23:24:10

kingkongcopenhagen

Well I guess the name says it all, and judging by your comments, you must be a true "man for all seasons".

It must be very difficult to have to live a life of Jekyll and Hyde during your process of assimilation. Sounds a bit like Hannibal Lecter !.

Wouldn't it be better just to be yourself and let other people accept you (or otherwise) as you really are !.

10 out of 10 for your trying, but 2 out of 10 for your empathy !.

kingkongcopenhagen

|2009-03-18 09:03:30

Sorry bob, I thought that was what I was getting at. Be yourself, but enjoy the advantages of the situation.

And assimilation, as I was trying to say before, isn't the way to go. You always winding up being a "Dane in training".

We all have our strategies for survival. I live a happy life here - without pills - so I was just trying to pass on what I thought would be a helpful tip.

Maybe too many of us are playing psycho/sociologists here though.

tom1980 - my advice

|2009-03-18 20:37:36

What would be your advice to people planning on coming here to live and work?

My advice is do not commit to a permanent job here without having lived here for a few months first. Best thing to do is get a contract job for a few months and see how you get on with the culture.

If youre an outgoing, bubbly person who loves meeting new people, who loves choice, you're going to find it tough.

If youre introverted, like being that way and love staying at home watching TV, this is going to be more your thing.

chris

|2009-03-18 23:30:27

I think maybe one of the problems so many people have has more to do with getting used to being foreign than it does about Denmark. Some people might not like a lot about Danish culture - there's not much you can do about that. But I see a lot of people complaining about how "rude" Danes are. They're not "rude" in my experience, but what counts as courtesy is different from in the US and probably many other countries. Watch how people act. They bump into each other all the time and nobody says "excuse me." They're not being rude by their standards, and it isn't because you're foreign. I just think that it has to be a serious collision to count as an "unskyld-moment." Bumping into someone at the grocery store isn't worthy of an "unskyld", but bumping into someone and causing them to drop a glass jar on the floor is an "unskyld-moment."

And are you absolutely certain that the person - particularly an old person - was being threatening or angry? I've had lots of people, particularly old people, yell for me when they need something. The whole of Denmark is a bit of a family: you're very casual with people, but you help people who need it. On the street twice I had to help an older lady get her little handcart up the first set of stairs, and once I had to help an old guy in a wheelchair get over the curb and across the street. And people are constantly asking me in the store if my husband could reach something for them.

That's another part of it: Generally speaking, a Danish person will help when asked, but won't offer help. It's a very adult society that way: if you're an adult, you know what you're doing; it would be rude to interject your opinion when it wasn't asked for. If you're doing something weird or strange people might stare, but that's not rude either, because they do it to people regardless of whether or not they're foreign. This also explains the whole "I gave up my seat and didn't get thanks" thing. You wouldn't: you gave up your seat without being asked, therefore you wanted to give up your seat. It's that simple. Watch: people say "thank you" when they asked and then recieved help, particularly help that inconvienced the helper, not all the time.

It's really easy to misinterpret things as rude or threatening, but Danish culture is casual, not rude, and I'm very sure most Danish people would be horrified to think that someone found them scary. But I understand, because a lot of the behaviours that people have here would be interpreted as rude or threatening in the US and other places - like not saying "tak," or people staring. It's just different here.

tom1980 - chris

|2009-03-19 13:47:40

You talk about people being "very adult" in Denmark and mention "I gave up my seat and didn't get thanks" thing".

I didnt expect any thanks. I knew if I didnt check who was going to sit next to me and get up in time, I would trod on.

I stood up (without being asked of course) and waited patiently. I was shoved several times and hit several times with their hand luggage and treated like I didnt exist.

This is a common theme amongst the comments here....

I dont call that adult.

Fireball - Nothing like what they try to promote

|2009-03-19 16:36:28

I have lived in Denmark for four years and am please to see that others share similar opinions regarding the rudeness of the Danes, poor integration and high taxes with no benefit for foreigners, their inability to perceive anything non Danish and how generally miserable people are. I have since moved to Sweden and it is a much more plesent and friendly place with better integration and more realistic taxes. For example the Swedes do not have to pay 180% registration tax for their cars and their roads are much higher standard. One Dane summerised Denmark up as being a modern Communist country and he was correct. I have also attempted to learn and speak Danish but the Danes are unaccepting if the pronunciation is slightly wrong and are not that willing to help. The Danes seem to be brainwashed into thinking that their quality of life is good with eastern bloc style supermarkets and high prices and a pretty average transport system. I think if Denmark ever moved to the euro it would open their eyes to compare the cost of living with their neighbours in Germany or Sweden. Having lived and worked in several other European countries my experience of Denmark and the rudeness of its people puts it at the bottom of my list of places to live.

Fireball - flags

|2009-03-19 16:42:12

I forgot to add that everything in Denmark must have a red and white flag or be called Dan something. Even mineral water is called Danskvand! A little to much like brainwashing. Even for an EU country the Danish system does not allow foreigners to buy holiday homes by the coast. Another example of unequal status for an EU country whoes prime minister heads the EU!

tom1980 - one positive thing

|2009-03-19 18:39:44

I would like to say that one positive thing has come out of living here.

I now really really appreciate where I'm from. I appreciate the shops, the people, weather, restaurants, facilities, everything! Put me in Marks and Spencer, Waitrose, Sainsburys and I think Ive died and gone to heaven. I even love the old, smelly, crowded, dirty Tube!

I never would have said that before coming here, so thanks Denmark :)

drsasinha - Working in Denmark

|2009-03-19 20:22:12

I have been reading all the interesting comments and I have a piece of advice for all my friends. Those who are unhappy about the tax system please leave and go back to your respective countries, because most of the individuals who came new about the tax structures before they came here. I am working here since 2006 and dont have any immediate plans of leaving inspite of the fact that danes are reserved, unfriendly blah blah blah and do you know why...... because this country
1. Has an excellent work culture
2. Has respect for every individual and their opinion.
3. Is very safe for families
4. Has a very very honest society.

So come on guys what else you need apart from a decent income.

Stranger - Not alone . . . .

|2009-03-20 10:12:55

When I first got here over 7 years ago, I thought it was just me as the reason why people were rude and hateful. I was a friendly helpful type of person who enjoyed having fun and experiencing new things. Now, like so many others I see on here, I keep to myself, try not to leave the house and keep saving for the day we can move back home. I know Danish but I have an accent that won't go away, so 9 times out of 10 when I speak to someone they look at me in disgust and walk away, especially as I 'look' like a native dane - it's evidently terribly upsetting to find out I'm not. The lack of manners is really appalling. The many, many times people have tried to walk through me, or bike through me, or drive through me as if I wasn't even there . . . Even to the point of walking up and standing in front of me while I'm looking at a display in a store - unbelievable. Even customer service is pretty much nonexistent. This new integration policy may be nice but it does not address the most basic problem - the natives don't really want anything to do with the outside world and they'll keep scaring off most of the ones that come here. I don't care about taxes, etc. - I just miss being around friendly people.

Giro - CPH Post, what are you going to do with all these

|2009-03-20 11:52:40

Dear CPH Post,

This initiative of welcoming and encouraging comments is very good and appreciated.

Some of the comments posted here would enlighten the authorities as to why foreigners do not want to move or stay in Denmark.

Will the newspaper actually route these comments to the two nice Danish ladies pictured in the article, Business and Economy Minister Lene Espersen and Managing Director of the Danish Chamber of Commerce Katia K. Østergaard ?

I think I speak for everyone when I say that we would like some of these questions to be answered by the people who have initiated the state-funded network for expatriates.

The comment titled "JFD - No social network will help" really nailed the issue in my opinion.

Thank you all and have a nice weekend

tomnashdk

|2009-03-20 12:54:52

If Denmark truly wants to solve this problem, they need to listen to a representative group of foreigners with an open mind, and construct an action plan to correct the problems. A long as we are expected to integrate and assimilate to the point of becoming "quasi-Danish", there will continue to be problems. Allow dual citizenship. Get rid of the law that gives me one year to "go home" if my Danish wife dies. Put some common sense and judgement in Udlændingestyrelsen. Don't tax me to support retirement and other benefits that I will not be entitled to collect. Danes themselves are not the problem - there are really nice ones and there are complete jerks, just like any other country. All we want is fair treatment legally, which is not what currently happens in Denmark.

tom1980 - drive through me as if I wasn't even there

|2009-03-20 13:00:18

Interesting point.

Ive had the same problem. One time I was crossing the street recently (on a crossing) and the light suddenly change to red, but I had already started to cross. A guy just drove forward and hit my leg. Luckily I ran out of the way in time and survived.

The other time I was in Nyhavn. It was the summer last year. I saw a young girl cross a little side street just near the canal. The light was red (tutt tutt!). A lady was driving towards her. She didnt slow up, she ACCELERATED and shouted out the window in a rage. Luckily, the girl was able to run out of the way in time.

Ok, point taken maybe the girl could have waited for the green light to cross the street. But why would anyone try to kill someone because of it?

Peter - seriously

|2009-03-20 13:12:07

You've all reminded me of so much I had forgotten. Now I remember how much better things were in the states.

Birds would land on my shoulders and sing good morning. Nobody was ever rude. Cars were free and grew like fruit on the side of the road. Everyone I passed on the street invited me to parties and to come live with their families. The trains were never late. The weather was never bad. We didnt have to pay any taxes. Grocery stores were fun-filled vacation parks. Doctors were free and would drop everything they were doing to see you whenever you wanted. Nobody ever messed up a bill or name. And Santa Claus and Jesus would come sing me to sleep every night.

This is getting ridiculous. Picking on 'Danskvand' and showing flags? I think I'll just go sit in front of a restaurant painted red, white and blue and enjoy a Philly with freedom fries and liberty cabbage. Give me a break.

Mukasa - It also has some good bits people!

|2009-03-20 14:50:35

It is interesting to read all these comments. It would appear that a lot of you have had a real shock coming to Denmark. I have had similar experience, good and bad about Denmark but in the bigger scheme of things, life here is no worse than it was in the UK where I lived. I have been here for only 6 months but have been married to a Dane for nealy 12 years so I have been visiting this country for a long time and when I moved here I already knew the things I would hate. The ridiculous taxes, the insane car prices (when I sold my 4 year old car in the UK I could just about afford a really nice bicycle here) and the nanny state. Just obtaining the CPR number was a mission. I had been to the shops and was bemused by the rude and unhelpful staff, had driven on their roads with the uncourteous and selfish drivers etc. I knew the Danes lived in their nice little bubble which they didn’t want anyone to bust. I knew about Pia whats-her- name, the nazi housewife who is intent on scaring off all foreigners, but all that did not put me off. Is the UK any better? Or the US!? Do you get 6 weeks paid holiday in the US? Because I just want a flexible working life, where if I am effective in 8 hours I can go home without needing to impress my boss (who also sods off home at 4pm), where I can get home and spend time with my young kids at this critical time in their life. I wanted to be able to go cycling out of town with the kids and enjoy the nature in safety. I wanted a bigger house (not car), more space, a slower pace of life. I don’t care if the Danes in general don’t like me – Crucially, the Danes that I know, family and friends, close work colleagues, and most of all, my wife are a great bunch of people. I intend to continue trying to fit in, those that accept me, great, the rest that don’t accept me can kiss my behind.

jtothearod - oh honestly!

|2009-03-20 15:11:35

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm actually living in the real Denmark, because I haven't experienced anything like some of the above comments.

I love it here! To complain about the weather is idiotic, where did you think you were moving to, fiji? Also the tax, you knew it was like that before you came, don't act like it has been a surprise.

My Danish colleagues are friendly, and regularly invite me out socially. I also have several Danish friends, in addition to the other foreigners I hang out with.

I am learning Danish, and all Danes I have met are impressed I am making the effort and are always ready to help me with my pronounciation. I have been told repeatedly by Danes that I really shouldn't bother learning the language (it isn't necessary for my work), since they all speak English and I'll never use it outside of Denmark, but I think it would be rude not to.

bob, if you have been here 4 years and you don't speak Danish, that is plain ignorant. If you want to live in a place where only english is spoken, you know where the door is.

I think the reputation Danes have for being rude is very undeserved. Everyone is equal, and everyone is treated as such. Its not what you might be used to at home, deal with it.

You people need to get real. Wait until something that is ACTUALLY unfortunate happens in your life, then you can have something to complain about. As has been pointed out, the equality and work culture are almost second to none. The happiest nation on earth might be a stretch, but it is pretty darn good.

tomnashdk

|2009-03-20 15:19:27

Peter - maybe the Americans should invite you to go home instead of the Danes doing so? ;) Please report back to us when you get there, because nothing I see on CNN's web site says anything about no more income taxes and Easter Claus singing (insert politcally correct diety of your choice) Bless America! All we realistically need to ask is for Denmark to make it fair. If I pay for it, I get it. If I am not entitled to it because I am not Danish, I don't pay for it. It could not be much easer than that, and it is easily explainable to the Jantelov types. There is already a double standard, so why not just make it work for all?

tomnashdk

|2009-03-20 15:37:43

By the way - we already have a social network. It is called: http://www.foreignersindenmark.dk
Ms. Espersen and Ms. Østergaard would be welcome to log in and participate in the discussion forums. They might gain an insight into what foreigners are really thinking, be able to answer questions, and gain a clear idea of what really needs to be taken forward to the Folketinget.

Peter

|2009-03-20 16:03:31

As far as retirement funds go, why should you be entitled to anything if you don't plan to stay here until retirement? If you are coming here to make a quick buck and run back to your 'home' that's your problem. Some of us will be collecting our funds down the road and look forward to it. Denmark can be very rewarding, but you have to work for it, assimilate and become a Dane. Last I checked, non us-citizens weren't collecting any social security.

Peter

|2009-03-20 16:05:48

jtothearod - thank you. Could not agree more.

kingkongcopenhagen - Politeness pastries

|2009-03-20 22:48:50

That's it. I'm through eating Danish pastries. From now on, I am going to ask that baker for a big ol' "politeness pastry".

JustAGuest - Just a Guest

|2009-03-21 10:54:58

Very interesting to read the different variety of comments from the readers. It seems people here either have very positive and very negative experiences of Denmark which depends entirely on the circumstances they've been through. Fair enough.

Here's my two cents. I think you really have to take the good with the bad with Denmark. There is no perfect place in the world where there is sunny weather, no taxes and people speak English--maybe it used to be Dubai? But I don't see people rushing to move there now.

I suspect from the sounds of it most people came because of a significant other. So if you're together with your loved one and family, what could be more important to your happiness or well-being? Will paying less tax or having a car really make a big difference to your happiness quotient?

tomnashdk

|2009-03-21 16:13:53

Peter - who said I did not plan to stay here until retirement? I do. But do you know that Denmark has a law that says if you are not "in the system" for 35 years, you are not entitled to much in the way of retirement benefits? So I am paying full retirement tax knowing full well that even if I do retire here I will not see my money again. That is the kind of tax discrimination against a foreigner to which we are objecting. So I take offense to your "that's your problem" comment - that is EXACTLY the kind of callous Danish ignorant statement to which we foreigners are objecting. (Look up "ignorant." It means uninformed. Any other connotation you take offense to is your problem.) You do not even know your own laws as they apply to foreigners and yet you chastise us for objecting to them. Your economy needs us here more than we need to be here. That is evident by Denmark's stated desire to become attractive to foreigners. Selling pigs ain't going to cut it in the future. It is cheaper to raise pigs in Russia and FLY them to Denmark because of your tax structure. Maybe you should listen to instead of objecting to our opinions. But then NIH is part of Janteloven, isn't it?

kingkongcopenhagen

|2009-03-21 18:02:43

tomnashdk, my primate brain has trouble understanding the whole pension system here, but I think what you might be referring to is "efterløn" - the *optional* early retirement plan.

It is correct that you have to start paying into that before you to turn 30. I know they changed the rules, however, so maybe it's just 35 years of paying in, as you say.

But, this is also Denmark, there are exceptions for everything. Have you checked with your union or a-kasse to see if there is some clause allowing immigrants to start paying in late?

If they are trying to encourage people to not just move here but stay here, as Ms Espersen put it, then that would be a real good incentive. It's actually quite a generous plan - while it still exists.

Maybe The Copenhagen Post could do its community a service and write some articles demystifying the pension laws. Faye Wray and I don't plan on moving away, but if we ever did, it'd be a shame if I didn't get to keep all the money I've already paid in.

Copenhagen Post Moderator - Comments on cphpost.dk

|2009-03-21 17:58:51

Dear cphpost.dk readers,

The Copenhagen Post welcomes the comments and opinions of its readers.

However, we would like to take this opportunity to remind readers that personal attacks, profanity, insults or other comments deemed inappropriate by the moderator will not be approved.

Thank you for your co-operation, and thank you for taking part in our on-line forum.

Yours sincerely,
The Copenhagen Post

Copenhagen Post Moderator - RE: CPH Post, what are you going to do with all th

|2009-03-21 20:33:49

Dear Giro,

The debate on this issue is followed closely by the Expat in Denmark network.

Yours sincerely,
The Copenhagen Post

juliolema - Simple better than simplistic

|2009-03-21 21:20:00

I find very simplistic to believe that all foreigners need is a social life. Based on what others mentioned above, it is about making our lives a bit more simple through the intricacies of the system (taxes, pension, a-kasse, børnehave...) and doing things a bit better (charge me/ tax me/pay me/give me the right attention right the first time, please).

That would also help reduce the 50.000 Danes that choose to live, work, pay taxes, be happy or be miserable out of Denmark.

Personal ties help, I agree, but for a limited time. Were it all about personal ties, many of us wouldn't leave our home towns.

chris - Suggestions for making people who will be happy he

|2009-03-22 10:54:50

I'm really happy - but not surprised - that the Expat in Denmark network is reviewing these comments. It's really one of the best things about Denmark: when a good idea or opportunity pops up, governments and businesses take advantage of it.

I will admit my first year here was hard, and I think I would have been happier and adapted sooner to Denmark with some help - my love for Denmark was definitely not love at first sight! It took about 6 months to get comfortable and about 18 months to get actually cozy, and I think a little help would have shortened that considerably.

I think that one of the problems is that Danish culture is so different from Anglo (American, British, Canadian, etc.) culture. When you come, you don't really expect that. The Danish majority look very Anglo, their architechture, while different, obviously developed in parellel to Anglo architecture, their clothing is the same or similar, their language is, while difficult, obviously from similar roots. A person doesn't expect Denmark to be that different culturally. But unlike many countries - including non-Anglo countries like Hong Kong and Germany - Denmark has never been owned or conquered by an Anglo nation. And, because of that, Danish culture is, in many ways, as foreign as Chinese culture. However, unlike, for example, China or Japan, the Danish goods we consume don't include media, so most people are pretty ignorant of Danish culture. We are therefore more tolerant of differences in China and Japan for two major reasons: first, they don't look "Anglo," so we expect them to be different and, second, we have a romanticism built around these cultures from consuming their media - movies and video games - that we don't develop from playing with Legos. Our toys and games were probably shipped by Maersk ships, but we don't play with a Maersk ship, we play with the Nija Gaidan 2 that came off the ship.

Somebody needs to actually write a book on Danish culture, preferably a non-Dane, or perhaps a workgroup composed of Danes or non-Danes, so that when people come, they know about Danish culture. And it needs to be honest. It is totally acceptable to most Anglos that many other cultures are more formal than theirs, but it takes some time getting used to how Danish culture is the other direction - actually less formal and more casual than Anglo culture. This can appear very rude to Anglos, even though it obviously isn't, it is just a cultural difference. Also, someone needs to provide a step-by-step list of "what you need to do when you get here" - probably the expat network site is the best place, because it can be updated when policies change. I think with this people would get comfortable faster, and people who will eventually come to like Denmark will realize this a lot sooner.

Also, when my husband and I were trying to move, and after we first moved, it would have been a huge help to know where to shop. It was almost impossible to find out what my paycheck would eventually buy in Denmark because we didn't speak the language, so we didn't even know what we needed to shop for. Providing links to store circulars for grocery and furniture stores on the Expat site would be tremendous help. Then you would learn right away that Fakta was cheap everyday shopping, while for some of the must-haves for most non-Danish households - like Kikkoman Soy Sauce - could be gotten at Kvickly. You could also figure out where you needed to go to get furniture and stuff in the first week or two. Also, including Danmission on the list of furniture places, which is great for setting up a household quickly and cheaply, would be excellent. We were lucky that Danmission was down the street from our first place here.

Not to get too lengthy on suggestions, but also including a "I'm moving here" list of Danish terms on the Expat website would be huge help - like CPR, bolig, lejlighed, skat, etc. I tried to get a Danish dictionary before I moved and I couldn't get one in time from Amazon, and there were no Danish classes available in my home city, and it was a really major US city.

I also want to say "thank you" to the Expat network for reading these comments. Some people are just complaining, but some of the stuff here might really help and I hope it does, because Denmark is wonderful, you just have to learn how to get cozy here.

I don't want to get into trolling, but to tomnashdk: I happen to know the poster "Peter," and I assure you he is a US-born, corn-fed American.

bob	\|2009-03-22 14:03:11

Peter and Jto the a rod,

I assume from your open letters that you are both from the good old US of A. Congratulations on finding your way to Europe, and more especially Denmark. You must feel very lucky to have escaped!!.
From your writing and ranting it is clear that you do not really understand a non-American lifestyle. Europe has become a union of member nations where people can travel, work and live in each others country. I think there are now 26 members of this union (last time that I looked the USA was not one of them). Languages and cultures are very varied throughout all of these nations.
Your comment about me being ignorant for not being able to speak Danish is clearly ridiculous. If you read my earlier posting it said that I have lived and worked in Mauritius, Cyprus, Hong Kong, Germany and other countries. I can speak English, French and German, unfortunately I did not get my head around Greek or Chinese !. So I guess that supports your point, I must be ignorant – sorry.
I should learn from the American model where Spanish and a basic form of English is spoken, i hear it is still under development. I believe that they call it Rap.
In the European Union (EU) most, if not all members, have rights which include health care, pensions and social provisions. I have therefore accrued pension rights in all of the Euro countries in which I have worked. It is an idiotic statement to say that people should not come to Denmark and take the money and run.
Your home country could learn from these models, it is still incredible that such a rich country (or should that read was rich?) does not give its citizens such basic rights as health care.
I can understand now why Americans would feel happy to live in Denmark (or Europe), it is relatively free from Wendys, Arbys, Red Lobster, drive by shootings, Mickey Mouse and baseball.
Welcome to Europe, but please learn some of the ways of the Europeans.

Fireball - why be a martyr?

|2009-03-23 10:17:31

There are a lot of very interesting views represented here, and a lot of common points. The one thing I would like to reply to is the comments stating that 'you should leave Denmark if you don't like the arrogant ways of Danish life'. I can only agree as I have no wish to become a martyr, when I can have have the same family values and benefits as Denmark plus a better lifestyle, integration and more friendly society in Sweden. I hope that the comments in this article are noted by Danish society as in my experience Danes are currently quick to criticize other nationalities problems and refuse to look at their own, which does not help with integration. Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house!

tom1980 - quote

|2009-03-23 13:44:24

Check out the new article in the CPH Post.

Geert Laier Christensen, Cepos’ head of research, told Politiken newspaper. ‘And it surprised us that people of immigrant background were just as happy with Denmark as native Danes.’

Well there you go. It seems there's no need for any scheme to entice foreigners to stay here then.

Fireball - who dreams these facts up?

|2009-03-23 16:30:17

Denmark has been ranked as one of the best countries in Europe in terms of satisfaction by Muslim immigrants, and the happiest nation in Europe now! Should be plenty of happy Danish muslims in the country then, at least that is what we are lead to believe if we read all the media propoganda. It is strange why you then get a different answer when you ask a Dane what they think about the muslim situation in Denmark. They often don't seem to happy now that the muslin percentage of population is greater than 5%, or are responsible for all the riots and drug wars with the biker gangs in Copenhagen. It would be nice if the media printed factual information rather than brainwashing info.

skenny - Moving to Denmark.

|2009-03-24 08:14:44

I plan to move to North Jutland in August 2009 (assuming my residence and work permit are approved). I'm a self-employed artist already represented by two Danish galleries. I made my first visit to Denmark in 2006 to attend a gallery opening and fell in love with a Dane in the process. We kept in touch and I'll be making my 8th return trip to visit her next week.

I've read through the previous posts and wonder if all or most of those with negative experiences live in or near Copenhagen. I lived and worked in New York City for 11 years and heard many of the same complaints from visitors and new residents alike. Big cities are tough places to live and can be extremely impersonal even if you are a native.

Although I have met almost all of my Danish acquaintances through my girlfriend, I have found ALL of them to be open, friendly, generous, accepting, polite, humorous, etc.

People are people no matter where you go. If you expect an entire nation to fall into a single category, your outlook is limited and your expectations are unrealistic.

As for making it easier to become a resident of Denmark, I welcome every effort on the part of the Danish government. Why criticize something before it even gets off the ground? Give it a chance! The reason for many of the negative comments posted here is that the overall system has bugs that need to be worked out ... and are being worked out. Dialogue is what will make that happen.

Reluctant Mermaid - Provincial? Moi?

|2009-03-24 11:12:30

"Big cities are tough places to live and can be extremely impersonal even if you are a native."

Having spent the past 25 years in London, I’d have to say that Copenhagen feels more like a small, provincial town than a big city. It is a beautiful place with much to offer the visitor – but doesn’t have the ‘feel’ (nor the shops, restaurants and facilities) of a major capital city. I suspect that might be the root of the problem. Relocating to Copenhagen is not like moving to "The Big Smoke". On the contrary, it is more like taking up residency in a village where 40 years might pass and you will still not be considered a ‘local’ down the pub – but will be expected to pay for everyone’s drinks (strangulated metaphor for the Danish tax system – geddit?).

Whilst I can only applaud Skenny’s positive attitude to moving here in the near future, I would caution that he may be wise to reserve judgement until he has actually lived here for a few years.

tom1980 - skenny

|2009-03-24 10:48:43

A quote "Big cities are tough places to live and can be extremely impersonal even if you are a native".

So that's it then. People who cant stand it here arent used to "big cities". We must all be country bumpkins that normally spend our weekends playing on combine harvesters and chewing corn.

Oh and presumably Copenhagen is a "big city" right?

You'll fit right in with that attitude. After all, Copenhagen is better than London, better than New York, the gastronomical capital of Europe, has the happiest people in the world, happiest immigrants in Europe, the highest standards, best welfare system blah blah.

Right, Im off to chew some corn...

bob	\|2009-03-24 13:00:23

Please refer back a few days to a previous post about “happy Danes” and the use of anti-depressants.

An article appeared in this weeks Sondagsavisen (week 12) quote “Boom i forbrug af antidepressiver”, the article goes on to state that in 2007 403,030 Danes were taking “happy pills”. This number rose ever higher during 2008 and in 2009 the use of pills has gone through the roof !.

If they are all so happy, why all the medication, or conversely is it the pills that make them the happiest nation in Europe ?.

tom1980 - My god!

|2009-03-24 17:06:38

"We want to be the preferred shopping destination of customers and as a result want to offer them the choice between paying with cash, Dankort [a Danish debit card] and international credit cards,’ said Henrik Kirketerp of Dansk Supermarked. "

Thank you Copenhagen Post for this story.

After 2 years of trying to use my "foreign" Visa and Mastercards here, I now know why they havent been working.

I have many times tried to pay for things like gym membership, groceries and restaurant bills with my "foreign" cards and yet nobody has told me they dont work because foreign cards are not accepted here. Im normally given a blank stare.

This is something to include in the foreigners welcome pack.

SeattleExPat - Expats on board?

|2009-03-25 08:44:54

I think help with integration/assimilation or just even assistance with living in DK on a temporary basis would go along way in promoting understanding of different cultures (which I think is the basis for most issues encountered by Danes and ex-pats alike.)

However, I wonder if there are any expats on the board of the National Network for Foreign Employees?

tom1980 - tourists

|2009-03-25 16:07:28

Has anyone seen those signs in some coffee places, shops and even on the back of menus?

It says "An additional 15% will be added to your bill if you pay using a FOREIGN credit card".

Note the article saying that tourist numbers are dropping like flies.

Also note thats in addition to the 25% in VAT!

justsayin - Very disappointed.

|2009-03-25 21:53:47

To those who critic our comments:
1: Many of us coming to Denmark have lived in many other countries so the issue of getting use to another culture is not the problem.
2: Yes, we knew about the high taxes but no one warned us of the “small details” like:
- You don’t get unemployment or it gets complicated unless you pay on top the A-Kasse.
- You have a TV or listen to the radio: pay some more. This is just aggravating; they cannot get the money from the outrageous bulk of taxes we already pay???
- Pay for work phone
- Kinder garden: Public? Yes, but not free like many other countries we know. You have to pay an exorbitant amount of money.
- And the list goes on.
3: Manners could be an issue to some. To me some things cannot be excused on cultural differences like I don’t excuse some behavior because it is someone’s personality or someone’s age (oh, he is just so young or she is just a bit stubborn). I have been giving up my seat for the elderly and pregnant my whole life. My luck was to be pregnant here and have to commute to work by train. Not a single time anyone offered me their seat. You could say I should have asked for it? Come on! You only need a pair of eyes to see a huge belly and carrying a computer and not think that person could benefit from seating down. The same goes for respecting the queues, holding doors (not asking to open the door for me, god forbid, but don’t slam it in my face!), same here, the list goes on. I lived in Asia, in the US and in many European countries and this was a nasty surprise.
4: Transportation: expensive and non reliable. I use/used train, bus, metro. With the taxes we pay this is unacceptable. Ride a bike? I truly believe many ride a bike because they don’t have another choice, not because is “green” and good exercise. Cars are ridiculous expensive and the roads are not in the condition they should be: poor asphalt and horrible lighting.
5. Health care: Coming from a country that provides free health care for half the taxes I was very disappointed with the facilities and the professionals. You hardly ever see a specialist. I had a baby here and I never saw a gynecologist (even after the birth), no ultrasound to see if everything was in place and nope, just touching the belly doesn’t cut it. Because the lack of ultrasounds I had complications that could have been prevented. The answer at the hospital for the lack of tests: cost-benefit. Those were the words of the doctor. No pediatrician sees my little son. With all the money paid: who gets to see these doctors: the dying???
6: Immigration/Integration laws: so many things are unfair I don’t know where to begin: the dankort to pay. You get only temporary residency and after seven years (correct me if I’m wrong you get the definitive one) but yet, when it comes to paying you are a full on resident. You cannot buy a summer house but thousand of Danes are currently owners of summer houses in my country. If I call a public institution and I ask in Danish: Taler du engelsk? They automatically say no. Even though as the conversation progresses and my Danish is lacking they will speak in English no problem. How nice. By the way, took Danish classes to learn the language. In a nut shell, many of us know that Denmark has one of the nastiest immigration laws in Europe.
I have found some nice Danish people but the core of the problem will remain if the government fails to correct some issues.
And yes, when on top of everything you add the weather, let’s just say the skilled workers are not going to come to enjoy the sunshine.

Reluctant Mermaid - KER-CHING!

|2009-03-29 22:10:07

I have just read elsewhere in the CP that Danish supermarkets are gearing up to accept - whisper it - FOREIGN credit cards!

The sentence that truly fancied my tickle was:
"The goal for PBS is that by 2012, consumers will be able to use international payment cards in two out of three Danish stores."

Two thousand and TWELVE?! Two out of three stores?! Whoopity-doopity-doo!

I realise I digress from the topic being discussed on this particular forum but, seriously, you could not make this stuff up.

I'm off to hug a herring ...

dagmar - Integration goes two ways

|2009-03-26 12:23:10

I feel that the "go home, if you don't like it" came very fast. Too fast, folks. To me this discussion should be constructive about what can be done to make expats stay. This network is one of many things that can help. The government can help with improving organizational things. But let’s not look only to organisations. Each of us (Dane or expat) can chip in their share to make things better.

It takes some time to like a new country, due to cultural differences and all that. And it takes much longer to feel at home. Whereever you live you'll find pros and cons.
In my view you feel at home where you feel welcome and valued and where you find ways to have your own culture fit to the local one; where you understand how the new country "ticks" and of course where you make friends.
To me the key for feeling OK in Denmark has been to understand where the things come from (e.g. hesitancy towards foreigners, scolding when you do things wrong, etc), to setting expectations straight and that learning Danish is the door-opener to many things. I also learned that integration is not necessarily seen as a two-way street.

Having these initiatives and all this money spent on making us stay, is great. I am just a bit surprized that it sounds as if there was nothing happening before and with this network all things are going to be solved. ForeignersinDenmark.dk has been named earlier, I am leading Worktrotter.dk, and I can name at least 20 others only in the CPH area who are all very active and we do great stuff. We do all this on a voluntary basis but just imagine what we could achieve, if there was budget available! What we have done could be re-used and such efforts opimized.

I would love it, if the official networks would be interested in our cooperation and involve us in making expats stay. Because who would know better than expats themselves, what expats need, how they can find their way around without knowing the language etc.
Based on this reasoning I have written a practical guide for expats moving to DK "The Worktrotter-guide to Denmark" as I found that the available information just stopped short for an expat. That is also why I started setting up events on practical topics. I was tired of being confused and not understanding what to do and where to go or e.g. having Danes explaining me how to meet Danes. Would they really know how that works, when you don’t know the language?

So, dear Danes, we are cool. Let us in into your lives and into what you're doing. I am sure that such we'll easier find out that you are cool too.

tom1980 - Mrs Mermaid

|2009-03-26 13:43:02

you are clearly a non-conformist. Encouraging foreigners to go shopping is simply not on.

I have no choice other than to ban you from travelling in the wooden box affixed to the front of my tricycle.

pacian - Changing the views of the Danish Society

|2009-03-27 15:08:28

Background

First let me introduce myself, I’m an American with a combine education in Information Technology and Library and Information Science. I moved to Europe more than 2 years ago to find another lifestyle I felt was lacking in the United States.

Denmark is fabulous place to raise a family. Access to other European cities is great though expensive. The everyday lifestyle is quite appealing. Quality of life is high though I believe Sweden to be higher and less expensive.

However, I discovered another side of the Danish society that shocked even this harden veteran from the US. Sadly, what I am about to write is very common. Sure there are success stories. Unfortunately those success stories are not the norm.

Through circumstances and sheer luck, I found a job as Head of Information Services for a major International Organization. The appointment was for 2 years. I accepted the appointment even though I was not guaranteed employment beyond the 2 years. It was an opportunity to be in Europe, in Copenhagen, to work for a world class International Organization…..

Fast-forward through time. I meet a wonderful Danish woman, we’re planning a wedding this summer. Life is great, just one minor detail, I’m no longer employed. My contract ended November 2008. She’s an education administrator so relocating back to the US is no longer an option.

My soon to be wife, said back in November 2008, I shouldn’t have a problem finding employment, I mean after all you have a Master’s. To be honest, I started my job search in June 2008. I wanted to give myself a cushion.

As of late March 2009, I’ve had to date 2 interviews after sending over 75 resumes to employer with job postings. I was told by a Danish recruiter, who recruited me for an International company, a job, I was perfectly qualified to do, and they preferred a Danish manager. I was shocked beyond belief. I have a dozen stories with endings like this.

Quite frankly, I’m surprised that a country with a population fewer than 6 million would so blatantly tell an experience IT Manager of 17 years we can’t hire you because you’re not a Dane.
I believe Denmark and the Danish Government should focus on a host of other issues before they spend 4.5 mil kroner’s on a network to keep expats in Denmark.

Reasons against this Network:

1. Working Denmark website, a website that currently exists has not been developed now marketed the way it should be. Employers who are in need of qualified worker post their requirements on other websites, i.e. Job Index, OFIR or IT Job Bank. The Danish government should mandate or strongly encourage the business community to use the *Official Job Site*

2. The web site Expat in Denmark sponsored by the Danish Chamber of Commerce, where the CEO of the Copenhagen Post and the CEO of the Danish Banker Association sits on the Advisory Board of the website. What I find shocking is there are several GREAT websites already in place, in English targeting EXPATS already utilized by the EXPAT community. The activity and web membership on that website s is five- fold compare to the EXPAT in Denmark website. I’m afraid the 4.5 mil kroner is an example of ‘Good Ole Danish Network’ at play.

3. Making Expats feel welcome! Unfortunately, Minister Espersen’s 4.5 mil kroner infusion into a network to make Expats feel at Home will not cure the ills of a country that refuses to step into the 21st century and realize their immigration policy is the most racist in all of Europe. In a Global economy and yes let agree there is truly a Global economy, a population of just shy of 6 million inhabitants cannot arrogantly assume they have all the answers. It’s an absolute know fact Danes will not hire a foreigner unless the talent pool is weak. If you’re a Muslim, then forget about finding a career leading position. Those positions remain available to Danes.

4. Taxes, the tax system in Denmark is absolutely unfair to Expats. The Government needs to be more progressive when applying taxes to Expats. It’s laughable to create a minimum salary level for Expats in order for them to have a reduction in taxes. Taxes, integration, unfair employment market, expensive housing and rising tension with the Muslim community are all issues the government must first deal with before forging ahead and trying to market Denmark internationally. Word of mouth through the Internet is a powerful tool that could work for you and against you. Professionals will research website not endorsed by the Government to get the ‘real’ truth about Denmark.

5. Ultimately, it’s up to the Danish Government and the Danish business community to change the growing negative image Denmark has in the Expat community. The Danish government should create an incentive for businesses to hire and maintain foreign employment. The Danish business community needs to be more educated on how critical it is to hire and maintain foreign employment from a competitive advantage. My sense is if they want it to happen it will and they don’t want it to happen it won’t. The Danish culture is want it is. In a Global environment they will quickly learn what it means to be last in the world of talent.

Fireball - more brainwashing propaganda

|2009-03-27 17:00:03

Not only are we told that the Danes are the Happiest people in the world, have the happiest immigrants, the best metro in the world, probably the best beer in the world and now the CP says Denmark has again been ranked as the world’s number one when it comes to IT! Its there no end to this propaganda and brainwashing? Some people should really experience living in other large cities in the world such as Munich, Vancouver etc. and then pass comments about the cost of living, lifestyle, transport connections etc

Copenhagenguest - About Denmark

|2009-03-30 22:13:10

What I have noticed about Denmark is that many here are afraid of immigrants or maybe even feel insecure because of the foreign population. Large chunk of the people I have met are ignorant of the outside world. I have a feeling the Danes want to use the language as a suitable barrier to distance any other nationality ...The story is the same with if you want to get a house or if you go out with your colleagues over for dinner. They will try their best not to be with a foreigner.

I am not sure about others but at work place, although there are some who are different many deliberately use the language to their advantage to keep you out of the loop or let you not know something which would be useful. If questioned they say it’s worse in Norway and Germany .

I have had heated debate with some of my colleagues about nationality, language and muslim population (a few who take time to understand foreigners)and some seem to understand the other view point and try to get along after delayed time. Although it’s a chosen few I must thank them for their help and friendship.

In spite of high salaries when compared to the UK, what the government should realize is that a foreigner who comes to Denmark do would not want to buy a house right away to settle down. Until he is sure of the place and surroundings and so the house rents should be properly regulated. I think the cost of living in Denmark its one of the highest in the world (of course after Norway), the high taxes and high cost of living along with the Danish sarcasm makes life sometimes very difficult.

It is sad to see that such a progressive country (Demark has been good for danes and in forseeing future) is unable to adjust or compromise a little to make the neighbor or friend or colleague feel at home.

I feel that Denmark will lose the race (if there is any) to the developing countries unless the people and government are more realistic and honest about accommodating foreigners and getting over the discrimination.

I have travelled and lived in the US, UK and have been in Denmark for about two years and do speak a little Danish and still feel that Danes do not care about anyone else.

Hoping that Danes take this comment in the right spirit.

Sabine Behrmann - What this network needs

|2009-03-31 07:33:14

A network like this without the committed participation of Danes won't work.

It is a typical misconception among Danes that expats (and immigrants) want nothing more than to stay among themselves - until it is too late, that is.

See www.deixis.dk

cnavarrom - Youth drunkenness

|2009-04-02 16:36:20

Some more wood to the fire:
http://www.economist.com/daily/chartgallery/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13395790&source=most_read

jamiebolt - The Lives of Others

|2009-04-04 18:35:10

I am an American who lived for a few years working in Germany before I married a Dane and moved here.

I want to think of this place as a land where mighty, Wagnerian Nordic mythology reigns: goblins and fine fairies; heroes with horns bursting out of their heads; goddesses with golden tresses tied in grand knots on

their heads. I want to imagine this as a place of majesty and grandeur; something that causes pause and

often gives awe. But, alas, this is not the place we live now.

The closest we get to mythology is up-and-over the fjord (O.K., it is really a sound, but they call it a fjord,

so let’s not get lost in semantics here - there are no deep gorges or huge waterfalls. If you want that, you

have to go to Norway, formerly owned by Denmark). There, nestled on top of a small hill lies one of the

largest Viking gravesites known. It is called Lindholm Høje. The museum is nice, though.

The place we live now is common: dog doo-doo is copious (I secretly think it must be a crime to pick it up

and dispose of it); cigarette smoking is de-rigueur; baby production and nurturing of the aged is the order of

the day (nothing wrong with that, but the scales are tilted in favor of students and the elderly here - far tilted

to Danes, not people moving here from other countries).

This land, devoted to the young and aged, offers those in the middle-of-the-age-spectrum the singular goal:

produce more of the young. It is subliminal, but it is everywhere. If you don’t, what are you actually doing?

Once in a while, you might see a nice car. Most of the time you try to avoid the exhaust of these ‘old

junkers’ as new automobiles *the cleaner burning ones* are so expensive that they are, for most people,

unattainable. Let us put this in perspective: automobiles in this land cost more than houses in central states of the USA. I am not kidding. So, we get to smell the fumes of many old cars, most on their last leg(s).

I don't have a car, so I am very lucky I can take the polluting trains ( for those who live in Copenhagen, you don't know this, but in Jutland, the trains spew out tons of gross exhaust as they are not electical). It is really East-Bloc looking, and I know what I am talking about, having visited East Germany before the wall fell.

There are good things here. Yes, there are. Sometimes the mind tends to focus on only the bad, but there is good. There is. The people, even the smokers, are, for the most part, physically appealing. If you like the sparkle of intense blue eyes, then you should come here. The girls, the ones not over-tanned from the plethora of tanning-booth sessions, might look better if they didn’t heavy rouge their eyes with that

Lady-Diana, circa 1981 aqua-blue shade and wear knit skirts over their leggings. I have noted and talked about the young male propensity to over-gel the hair, so I won’t beat that to death. And why do so many of

the women over 40 all want to look androgynous and without a life force? I think they all share the same dark red hair dye and the same Dutch architecture glasses.

The smell of alcohol is everywhere. Mostly it is just beer, but sometimes you are graced with the heavy passing breath of bourbon, or was that rum? Needless, it is usually swirled in with cigarette burn-coal-mouth providing an olfactory sensation akin to smelling a smoldering heap of sulphur-dung blue-flamed from a dirty donkey’s rump.

At the end of the day (ah, that wonderful saying), if you like socialism, hot dogs, cigarettes, beer, and wantonly discarded litter(both from young an old), and extreme conformity, than this is the place for you.

Stroll around; enjoy the juxtaposed old-young town. Just watch for the aggressive baby stroller pushers and

the mean old folks who purposefully use their canes to get Netto-SuperBrugsen-Irma-Fakta-Bilka line advantage. And, please, please, whatever you do, try your best to avoid the ever-present, highly-clumped, shining-bright doggy-doo, alway just a step away on a sidewalk nearest you, near the littered (littering is a
favorite pastime of the Danes - especially cigarette butts and 7-11 wrappers).

I wish you well in Denmark. I will not be here to collect my AM withdrawn account, so I guess someone will
get something out of it.

I guess my contribution will go to some "pensionist" who just turned 40 and has enrolled in the
state-sponsored androgony courses.

If Denmark was serious about commitment to highly skilled professionals, then do just one thing that is so incredibly taboo to do her: lower taxes.

If the "top tax" rate was even close to the rest of the continent, to be in line with the rest of Europe, then maybe, just maybe the skilled would stay.

As it is, most of them go to the UK, which also has all the social services as Denmark (o.k. in the UK you

can't collect unemployment forever as it seems here in Denmark). At least the top tax in the UK is only
40%, not the almost 60% here.

It makes all the difference in the world, especially if you want to keep people here. It is that simple here in the to the communist monarcy of Denmark (ah, the oxymoron of that!).

peocro - comparisons with other countries

|2009-04-08 07:56:17

I moved to Denmark in 2006, and I did not find all the problems highlighted in some of the posts above:
- before living here, I lived in Romania, UK, Germany and Sweden, besides moving around a little in my home country, Italy. Moving is ALWAYS difficult, even if you master the language, or you believe you know the culture of the country you move in. You jump into an environment that is already settled: the "locals" do not need you, and even if they are not hostile, they simply continue with their lives.
- in Denmark, like everywhere, you have to make the first step, and the second, and the third... This is not a Danish peculiarity, but just a consequence of the fact that you are in a established social environment
- is clear that is far easier to move and to settle in an environment where there is a large number of people in a situation similar to yours: for example, if you move to a capital city, like Copenhagen, is far easier to get in contact with a number of people whose "social receptors" are not fully occupied... both Danish nationals and immigrants like me. It may sound like a paradox, but has been way easier to develop a social network here, than when a move to a couple of small (80-100K people) towns in Italy, my country.
- I like the fact that there is a debate about the issue of welcoming people from other countries. We may discuss whether the solutions proposed are adequate, but the very facts that there is a project is a welcome sign
- I agree that some aspects of the Danish immigration rules are not as welcoming as what you find in Sweden, for example. I think that are caused by certain populism that really does not look at the long term interest of the country.
- I am amazed at some comments about the need to learn and use the Danish language: we moved here and to learn the language is the least we can do to try to make an effort to develop a local social network. I found irritating that people complains that Danes in a social environment speak Danish among themselves when there is a non-speaker around. This is exactly what is happening in ALL countries in the world: if I am at a party in the UK or in the US, I do not expect that everybody switches to Italian to help me "feel at home"!
- I do not find Danes particularly rude, at least in comparison with other parts of the world. Maybe my standards are too low!!
- My impression that here, like in many parts of Europe, you will never become a "local", but I do not find it particularly problematic: I will never be a Dane, but I will learn something by living here, like I hope I will be able to transmit something to the people close to me!

Klaus1 - An inside outsider speaks!

|2009-04-10 11:20:29

How deliciously apposite that this discussion should appear on April 9! That nobody else has recognized this as the day Danes celebrate (or used to) their liberation from the yoke of foreign invaders only proves how unintegrated you all are!

Just kidding, but whilst ‘know thine enemy’ would be the wrong expression, learning about ones host country and its history goes a long way towards understanding where the Danes are coming from.

This post may be considered ‘off topic’ as I am not a foreigner living in Denmark but a Dane who has lived for 60 years in Britain. As such, with infrequent visits to Denmark in recent years, I have seen the gradual evolution of Denmark and the Danes into what it and they have become, and I fully understand the vast majority of the comments made here, and recognize them as largely accurate, or at least entirely believable, which is depressing albeit explainable.

Am I qualified to speak? My parents moved to Britain in 1949 when I was five. I was educated in the UK, but we spoke Danish at home, and half my career was spent working for Danish companies or organisations in the UK. As a result I am truly bi-lingual: I have no Danish accent when speaking English, and no English accent when speaking Danish, although my written Danish can sometimes require a spell-checker! More to the point, I have retained ‘dual culture’. My (English) wife and children have adopted many Danish traditions and tastes, as they mesh easily with those of Britain. But I have maintained my Danish nationality and only ever had a Danish passport, although now we are all in the EU this has lost its significance.

In the fifties, sixties and seventies I visited Denmark nearly every year, for either business or pleasure, from the eighties onwards perhaps only every five years or so. That is why the changes to Denmark and my fellow Danes are more noticeable to me. So yes, I feel I may be able to contribute an insider’s view from the outside.

Denmark is a tiny country of little or no global importance, a fact that Danes have a problem recognizing. It has not had any imperial ambitions for centuries. It has simply stayed at home and got on with it, so to speak, and been exceptionally successful at doing so. Even the citizens of countries Denmark have close relations with know little about it. It comes as a shock for the average Brit to learn that only about 6% of Denmark’s GNP derives from agriculture, as it is still famous only for its bacon and butter. Some of them know that Lego is Danish, a very few have heard of Bang & Olufsen and still remember Danish furniture, most regard Danes (and all Scandinavians) as liberated sex maniacs.

The trouble is, that level of general ignorance is reciprocal: Danes know too little about other cultures, and Denmark has not been exposed to mass immigration until relatively recently, hence it is unsure about how to handle it. It was that same ignorance that led it to seriously trample on the spinach patch (as we say!) by publishing those stupid and offensive cartoons. Raving on about free speech, freedom of worship and democracy cuts no ice in societies that have never adopted either. Freedom of speech does not include the freedom to offend.

But to understand the general attitudes of Danes to foreigners, and to each other, it is necessary to acquaint yourselves with the still ingrained ‘Jante Law’ (look it up on Wikipedia), which has ten basic rules:

Don't think that you are special.
Don't think that you are of the same standing as us.
Don't think that you are smarter than us.
Don't fancy yourself as being better than us.
Don't think that you know more than us.
Don't think that you are more important than us.
Don't think that you are good at anything.
Don't laugh at us.
Don't think that anyone cares about you.
Don't think that you can teach us anything.
In the book where this originated, those who transgress this unwritten 'law' are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against communal desire, which is to preserve social stability and uniformity.

That’s it in a nutshell! Given that Danes are blunt speakers who do not wrap their opinions in waffle, hypocrisy or political correctness, and who neither accept nor understand discrimination (or so they think), the modern spin-off amounts to this:

“This is our country. We are proud of it and consider it better than most other countries. We have made ourselves one of the top three richest countries in the World. If you come here:

Learn Danish. Live like we do. Do not expect us to change our beliefs or society to accommodate your alien life styles or religions. We don’t really need you here, so go find yourselves a niche we haven’t already filled. If you don’t like it here, go home.”

But then what, do I hear you ask, happened to the Denmark that rescued its Jews during the occupation because the prejudice against them was incomprehensible, as they were merely fellow Danes who had always lived amongst us? Sorry folks, my parent’s generation has died out, and their sense of fair play with it. Ask yourselves: having seen what Israel is capable of in Palestine, could that same rescue happen today?

Why are manners so bad in Denmark? See above. It is every Dane’s right to get on the bus first!

There has been a generation change, as well as a cultural change, in Denmark. What happened to the old Social Democrat slogan “Few should have too much, fewer still too little”? Since the Thatcher/Reagan era Denmark has also adopted the ‘we want it all, and we want it now, and to hell with anyone else’ attitude. Now the majority have too much and ignore those who still have too little.

It has been sad for me to see the erosion of the possibly naive but well-meaning tolerance that Denmark used to exhibit, but let’s face it, that change is not exclusive to Denmark. It is all too common in most Western countries, who also sometimes share a confusion between another country’s government and its ordinary citizens. Those of us who do not approve of, say, the imperialist oil wars waged by the US and Britain, may not react positively at all times to their citizens.

Total integration is not possible, true multi-culturalism is unattainable and possible even undesirable.

Gaius Julius Cæsar - Night of the Spoiled American

|2009-04-12 22:29:04

Let me let you immigrants into a little secret, I know it might strike you as horrific, if not danish.
Denmark is not here to accomodate the whims of spoiled upper middle class American children.
Let it sink for a while.
The mere thought that some people dare to think that they have the right to believe in and live out a culture different from you can be unforgiving on your neoliberal individualist personality, I know.
Let me just make the radical suggestion that perhaps instead of insisting that the native population change their behaviour into something that isn't 'rude' to the American senses, or change the tax rate into something tolerable for your highnesses, that you pack your belongings and go back to the paradise whence you came.
Now unlike you I'm not going to sink to the level of making biased insults against the country from where you hail, instead my insults will be if not neutral, then statistical and unrefutable. It would be symptomatic of my superior danish education, that unlike in the US doesn't require the economic and emotional support of rich parents.
Afterall, Denmark can boast of a murder rate that is 1/6 of the American, along with a prevalence of 'emotional distress diseases' that is less than half that of the US.
You see, unlike the US, society isn't segregated into class-based communities. It is easy to be happy when you never have to see the back side of society. I mean, who cares about poor people? If I can't see them, then they don't exist.
People in the US are just happier, regardless of what statistics say. Upper middle class John doesn't like high taxes, it makes him unhappy, thus all people must be unhappy, because the world revolves around John.
Talking of minorities, good job integrating the black community into American society. Congratulations on the glorious success of the zero tolerance drug war. Thanks for your good work on leading the world economy. Kudos on your creation of two unendless wars, to which Europe is to conditionlessly attribute forces.
No one is forcing you to stay here.

Constantin - Not useful.

|2009-04-13 02:56:15

The day I will stand in defense of the American way of thinking, will be a sad day in my life indeed and I naturally saw jamiebolt's post as a naive and self centered approach. I did, however, expect a rather scornful approach than a reply such as the above, which is no more helpful than the aformentioned post -which I dare believe caused all this heat in the talk.

Sadly, it is not only Americans, or whoever else may arrogantly -justly or not- be considered a second class freethinker, who does think that Denmark is a surprisingly unfriendly country towards immigrants. And though I have come to recognize racial suspicion (or let's be blunt, mild passive racism) as a natural component of any relatively homogenous society, the Danes take it quite far by being inhospitable to nearly every nationality than their own.

It is one thing to stick to your right not to want to change your ways for anyone, be it the queen of Mars or John Doe, and quite another to actually fear that any foreign meddling within your borders could cause such a malformation in your way of life. A time might have existed when cultural inferiority did actually matter and was at the cost of international prestige, but really, you've got yourselves an extremely nice country, high above average standards on most things (excepting that damn weather) -isn't about time you stop acting all afraid about the effects of multiculturalism?

And to my defense, which as I understand is almost obligatory, I am not an American citizen.

jamiebolt - Core of the Issue

|2009-04-14 13:11:22

My commentary, as noted by Constantin, was not particularly useful, so I will get to the core of the issue which is this:

- If the Danes are not able to attract foreign skilled labor, they will also not be able to tax those individuals to assist with their payments to those on the lower classes.

- If the Danes do not recognize that skilled labor is leaving, they will be at a competitive disadvantage to other countries in the EU.

- Most foreign skilled workers in Denmark were not trained in Denmark, and many of them, including myself, had to pay for my own education via working (as I did as a waiter and later as a researcher to pay my entire college costs). Therefore, we do not get the benefits of the Danish system as the Danes do. And retirement savings are difficult here as there is a large tax before we can save for retirement.

- I have lived here for a few years and have not used many of the public services and probably never will.

-Universal health care is available in most EU countries, so this is not something special to Denmark.

As for the commentary by Gaius Julius Ceasar and many in Denmark who choose to think this way, they don't have to worry. I am moving to the U.K., so now the U.K. will earn my tax money, not Denmark.

That is the issue. We are leaving. If you want to understand why, I think many of the posts here cover the reasons, and cover them well.

And yes, I am an American. I know that completely disqualifies me from any debate as the prejudice against my land is overwhelming and I am lumped with the stereotype. Not having lived in my country for 10 years, however (I lived in S.E. Asia, Canada, then Germany and now Denmark) I think I am not as naive as many would like to paint me.

AnAfricanInDenmark - Another perspective

|2009-05-05 13:23:10

There are many varying and thought provoking viewpoints on here and, if as stated, the relevant decision makers are being made aware of these viewpoints, it would probably be too late to do much to change people's perceptions.

I agree that if Denmark cannot attract and retain skills it will lose out in the long-run and unless foreigners are treated fairly the current situation where people come here and leave will continue.

However, as a recent arrival to here may I share my perception and experience?

Here is some background which you might find of use to see the context within which I make some of my statements:

Firstly, I have worked all over the world and consider myself a knowledge worker rather than someone with specific nationalistic viewpoints. I can and will go where it pleases me and add value to whichever organisation and/or country treats me well enough. This is a fundamental aspect of today's worker versus the industrial paradigm within which decisions still seem to be made.

Secondly, I am qualified to work in terms of the Positive List (PL) requirements and therefore can add to the tax pot of Denmark. I am currently in the process of being evaluated under the Green Card Scheme (GCS).

Thirdly, I am currently seeing the Nordics as a base from which to carry on my career and, depending on how I am treated, will consider it a long-term base. Detracting factors are the lack of access to State Pension and lack of a lower tax rate as a quid pro quo for not having such access.

Now - having had the experience of applying for and being approved on the Highly Skilled Migrant Program in the UK, I find the Danish bureaucracy regarding immigration to be highly problematic and cumbersome. As a case in point with the HSMP you can apply for a work permit irrespective of whether you have a job lined up or not. Here you have to apply for the Greencard Scheme and, if you apply for Positive List roles and are successful your application can be moved from the GCS to the PL. Surely, this system can be streamlined? If you want to attract highly skilled workers their first impression is vital to making this process a success. The Brits have managed to get that process right and it could be a useful model from which to learn.

The lack of professionalism in this process also astounds me. I called the Immigration Services yesterday to ask for confirmation that documents have been received to be told that it is not considered efficient to send out confirmations but rather to process the application. When I challenged the person on this it then transpired that two weeks after these documents should have been captured on the system it still doesn't appear to have been captured leaving me not knowing whether it has actually arrived safely and seriously doubting the "efficiency"!

The time it takes to process applications seems to be a hit-or-miss affair too. I have spoken to various people and have been told anything from one month to four month's processing time seems to be the norm. Surely a more efficient system can be put in place regarding processing?

As far as my personal experience, the above notwithstanding, is concerned I have never found any Dane to be discourteous or not accommodating to me not being able to speak their language fluently. I cannot say that I have not been made to feel extremely welcome and I cannot say that I have encountered any animosity. However, I am also not disregarding other people's experiences in this regard.

Are the Danes racist? Having recruited Finance professionals all over the world and in the Nordics I can tell you that Danes will, given the chance, recruit fellow-Danes rather than outsiders, Swedes and Norwegians included. This has less to do with prejudices but is indicative of the current economic climate where being able to do a job is so much more important than having the potential to be developed to do said job. It is not unique to Denmark.

No doubt there will be some who agree and some who do not with what I had to say but thanks for allowing me to air my opinion and at least vent some steam!

majstor - :)

|2009-05-06 11:12:36

In general, I like living in Denmark. Denmark gave me a second chance for life. I never felt racisam here, or my children too. It is a very nice country for living, especially for people with children. I have got limited residence permit and only thing what I need more is unlimited residence permit.

justsayin - To Gaius Julius Cæsar:

|2009-05-06 14:04:25

You are so mistaken to think that all people writing here are American. I am not, I am European.
The issue is really not that complicated to understand.
Give us what is fair in return for our taxes, period!
Denmark is not giving it, and people are leaving, of course, what do they expect?
Many of us writing here had live in many other countries, so if you did not, I suggest some traveling and living in a different place other than Denmark and get some learning.
Health care is not good for the money, not by a long shot. Nursery schools are at the price of private schools everywhere else. Bureaucracy is horrible. Denmark did not have to spend a dime in our education. Social services in general, from garbage pickup, transportation, to unemployment are a joke compare to many countries where I paid half the taxes.
Really, the only way to get something from the system is to have a bunch of kids and that is what I see the Danes doing.
All countries have good and bad things. Be critical enough to recognize both.
So, open your eyes, and stop thinking Denmark is the best thing since sliced bread! It is definitely not when it comes to immigration and integration policies.
If you don’t believe me, go talk to the thousands of "landsmænd" living in my country.

And no, you are right; no one is forcing us to stay. We were just foolish enough to believe in the idea Denmark sold of itself about work and quality of live to the rest of the world. A complete lie.

Skilled workers will leave. I know I am.

Paula.pedersen - Cooperation

|2009-05-07 20:25:47

Very good discussion!

I am happy to see that our site, www.foreignersindenmark.dk has been mentioned here. We look forward to working together with other expat sites and we hope Expatindenmark.com will also want to work with us.

Foreigners face struggles that are almost incomprehensible for a native to understand - they might THINK they understand, but only the ones of us who have actually lived abroad for a few years can understand the feeling of being an outsider and many times misunderstood. Being a tourist is just not the same thing...

Paula

justsayin - Interesting...

|2009-05-08 10:12:37

http://crossroadsmag.eu/2006/04/us-slams-europe-on-muslim-integration/

http://euobserver.com/9/21327

HOX - Living on the edge....

|2009-05-08 11:12:30

If you are prepared for a life on the periphery of society, then Denmark is the place to be! I swallowed the ‘learn Danish’ mantra, and complied, and made a consolidated effort to learn the about the place I had decided to hang up my hat, and thought that when those issues had been achieved, things would glide, and I would be accepted, - but, like many, it wasn’t to be, it materialised into Operation Isolation, a life on the edge, despite heavy efforts to communicate, establish friendships, work etc, and fade into the woodwork so that my foreign presence didn’t disrupt, it has became patently clear that one is not accepted, period!

Denmark is a little country with a big inferiority complex, the eternal brain washing of the population with the monotonous ‘worlds best’ edict, just serves to qualify that, and coupled with a large infusion of Jantelov, it has produced a nation that is highly sceptical and suspicious of foreigners. The whole experience has the effect of an implosion, a closing of ranks at anything and anyone that doesn’t fit in to their Danish norms, and the results for the foreigner on the receiving end can be a devastating experience, and leaves a flavour of apartheid in one’s mouth, especially as their conclusions are foregone, and not because they know you, or you have done anything to incite their rude, and often racist responses.

It will take a change of attitude, and government policy to alter the present state of affairs, the injection of 4,5 million kroner should be redirected to the policy makers, to help them understand that their laws need an overhaul, starting with their draconian immigration laws, and suffocating tax system; people don’t come here with a negative vision of things Danish, on the contrary I would postulate, but, it doesn’t take very long before immigrants adopt a defensive attitude after their initial rendezvous with the indigenous population.

I’ve been here for years, on the periphery I might add, but I did succeed in carving a life for myself, and giving employment to many Danes, but the price has been high……living on the edge.

alrowdha

|2009-05-15 11:04:20

I just came back from a week spent in France. I cried while I was food shopping....
I can't wait to sell my house up amd off i will be out of here....
I don't have to explain why...most of us know....and there is no need to be rude about it...although we are...this country sucks...and believe me, I have lived and worked in many others places and cultures....
I tried hard....doctors, lawyers, accountants, vets, restaurants, banks.....at all levels, there are hopeless....now i am giving up hopingi will seel quick and go....

khosanman - to alrowdha

|2009-05-15 16:15:13

have you seen the danish housing market?

Good luck selling!!!

cnavarrom - ..well (mmm) it's not about taxes!

|2009-05-15 17:33:57

The way I see most of the talk is done here and the math is simple: the foreigner satisfaction level is below the neutral line; and it is not required a PhD to predict that there will be undesired consequences –especially if the government is not optimizing the use of the limited resources (i.e. by trying to solve superficial problems instead of the real core problem).

Regarding taxes, there look to be the perception that taxes is something that “we own” because it is in our GROSS income but then “we lost” because it is not in our NET income; so as lower the tax as richer we are and vice versa. This is, of course, an “absolute” point of view for something that in reality is “relative”. Will explain, let’s say you get $100 /day and you have to give $50 to the government and use the other for your expenses. Suddenly one day the government notifies a reduction and you’re expected to give them only $30 (which mean you now get $70 instead of $50); do you really think you’re now $20 richer? Of course not, simply your income and expenses will balance and you’re back to normal with the same purchasing power of $50 /day. It’s important to understand that it has nothing to do with the tax system but with very (very!) short words with the way Danish people decided to organize their society and live collectively their lives.

I find it a little bit seldom to claim (for example) that Danish must lower the taxes on cars to really incentive foreigners to come or stay, and here we need to draw a clear line between philanthropy and competiveness -because they could require completely different treatments. How much is this is about helping foreigners to stay and adapt because of the simple pure love to their “equals” (us!); and how much is has to do with the real need of foreign specialists/experts who’s know how is essential to keep Denmark competitive in the years to come.

As a foreigner, regardless of being an employee or entrepreneur, it’s all maths –excel for dummies if you ask me. It is our responsibility to understand the system of course to be able to make the conversion from “gross” to “net” properly; and once that’s done just leave the market economics with its free price system work. If the “net” income is insufficient to leave as per our standards we foreigners won’t stay or come; this mechanism will continue forcing the Danish society to raise the offered “gross” income. In short words, the solution doesn’t need to come from lowering the taxes but from increasing the gross income –no changes in the tax system but same results.

Believe me, what we like or not has nothing to do with taxes …still moving the discussions on this direction would be like trying to put in jail the colour of the hair, the height, the weight and the nickname of the killer ;)

bob - what is the point ???

|2009-05-20 21:15:52

This thread has now run for two and a half months. It has become a download page for bitching, get real no good will come of it !!!.

It is better to leave this little country for these little people and move on.

What goes around comes around, have the wisdom to accept that which you can not change !!!

I will not miss Denmark. Amen

alrowdha - Tak very much

|2009-05-21 14:36:11

Dear khosanman ,

Tak very much for reminding me that I am going to be here for a little longer!!! How depressing!

marriedtoadane - What about those already here?

|2009-05-27 11:08:40

Has anyone actually thought about how many professionals there are that happen to be here already, but default of being married to a dane, and actually haven't been able to find work?
It's not from want of trying, but it seems at every turn, there is a stonewall in being able to find work. Some of the reasons I have been given for not being considered are: not a man, don't know enough about danish culture (they didn't bother asking, they just assumed as a foreigner I wouldn't be able to appreciate it), don't speak the language, I (only!) have a bachelor degree...I could go on.

But, this is by the by. Whilst there are skills that are lacking here, as anywhere in the world, there are skills that are sitting around without being utilised, purely because companies aren't willing to give foreigners who are already here the to opportunity to work.

Just a note about me: I'm British, married to a dane, have a permanent resident permit, 5 years of working experience, speak/read/write basic danish....and I really want to work. Appart from wanting to continue my career, I actually want to be able to contribute to society here in Danmark via SKAT

Something which I have realised only recently and I'd like to put this point across for everyone (and the government) to consider. For all those foreign professionals who are married to danes (themselves professionals), imagine the kind of gap that is left in the skills force whenever these professional danes leave the country as their spouses are unable to find work???

Lingus - So sad but true

|2009-05-28 10:40:12

I have mixed emotions about living in Denmark. I've been married for 12 years, have 2 young children. Most of our married life has been spent in my country. The decision to move here was initiated by myself due to the lack of "special needs" benefits and facilities, crime and a future for our boys in a crime-ridden country.

So no - I cannot complain about the high taxes (at least it's well spent here), the medical aid is free and basic things that we have NEVER had back home are readily available. You see - I've come from a 3rd world country (even though we lived pretty much 1st world there), I miss the sunshine, the general friendly attitude of people and the wide open South African skys.

I too like "marriedtoadane" am in exactly the same boat, I wonder if all the "foreign experience" that the government so desperately needs is only in their head! I have 14 years experience in the magazine industry and can't even get my pinky toe in the door!

Wake up Denmark...you're really losing out on a hard working workforce...ones that don't take "stress leave" when deadlines get a little tight!

On the other hand....thank you Denmark for giving my family relief in certain areas of our lifes.

I only hope that as spouses or partners of Danes we consider their feelings too...my husband for one feels that his country has let me down in the work department and has to hear me bitch and moan now and again.

So... to my Dane...I love you and I'll learn to love your country and make it my home...it just might take me a little time. :-)

SeattleExPat - The cost of Living? How about the cost of Leaving

|2009-06-10 11:29:12

We are winding down our stay here in CPH. After 2 1/2 years, I have felt most of the frustrations voiced here, so will not re-hash them.

Do you know what it will cost us to extricate ourselves from Denmark after only 2 1/2 years? At least 66,000.00 DKK.

That's right. Our landlord is asking for this much money to paint the walls and refurbish the floors, rent for the 2 weeks it will take to do it, and he wants us to pay an architect to oversee the work. Outrageous! And he wants the ceilings painted - the ceilings! There is nothing at all wrong with the ceiling!

Unfortunately, I have checked around and got quotes a bit less, but still really expensive. This is the price of stuff here in DK.

Now, had these costs all been explained to me up front I NEVER would have rented this apartment! Our relo person did not advise us of costs at all and I feel they did us (and many other ex-pats) a huge disservice by not disclosing the costs of such things.

To add insult to injury, I discover that we are being gouged on the rent as well. Actually, I pretty much knew we were paying a premium being short-term ex-pats, but the move out costs on top of the high rent is just too much.

And of course, there is nothing I can do about it, as the lease very vaguely states "the property should be returned in clean, nice, and proper condition" whatever that means. And where ever I turn for advise, I get the same response "that's the way it is done".

If you are searching for an apartment, be sure and check the lease very carefully and do not sign up for an apartment that requires you to refurbish it!

It makes me very sad because I am leaving here very pissed and have no intention of ever returning.

dianecarole - Dear SeattleEx pat

|2009-06-11 13:13:56

Why not paint it yourself?
This is perfectly permissable to do, and the landlord can not argue about that.
As far as I am aware, you need to paint everything white.

khosanman - To SeattleExPat

|2009-06-11 18:45:11

I agree, its a disgrace how they do this in DK. In most countries, it is the obligation of the owner to pay for these things, its normal wear and tear, like depreciation in owning a business.

If I were you, since you are leaving anyway, just dont pay. And if you have a deposit with him and its significantly less, just write it off, that way you dont lose as much, and dont pay the difference.

You are going back to the US i presume so who gives a damn. They wont press any legal action if thats the case, its not worth it.

SeattleExPat - More on Leaving

|2009-06-13 07:53:24

Thanks for the feedback.
Dianecarole - we thought of painting it ourselves, but then, of course, we would have to buy all the paint and supplies ourselves and I don't want to invest anymore $$. He also has final say as to the quality of the paint job. If we go to the time and expense of painting, he can say it did not meet his standards and have it done professionally. The bottom line is he has 48,000.00 DKK (plus another 12,000.00 DKK in over-paid utilities) from us already, which that I'm certain we'll never see again, so I don't want to invest anymore money into this bottomless pit.

khosanman - I have no intention of paying anymore over the deposit he already has. Seems like the best solution. But - it still irks me that my best option is to walk away from 60,000.00 DKK. Landlord wins no matter what.

chris - A little help for SeattleExPat and others in his s

|2009-06-18 09:52:24

To SeattleExPat:
If your landlord is treating you unfairly, you don't have to take it. If you contact your local kommune; there are people and organizations that can act as ombudsmen in the dispute. I had a dispute with my former landlord in Odense similar to the one you described, and they helped resolve the issue fairly and quickly.

Vesterbro - Keep an open mind

|2009-06-19 00:22:47

Im sorry to say but it seems as if quite a few people (mostly from the US), have forgotten all about to where they have moved. This is not the USA and we are not tying to be like the USA at all.
As a Dane it hurts me to read all the bad things coming mostly from the Americans. I think its very important to keep one thing in mind when moving to another country, " you are the foreigner and you need to adapt, this is not the states and it never will be". I have lived in North America and have enjoyed it very much. One thing I learned very fast was if I wanted to "play" I needed to play by the rules, and I think the Americans can learn alot from this.

Keep an open mind and expect differences, get out there and get to know the Danes. We are not that bad...

Vesterbro - Vesterbro - Again

|2009-06-20 18:26:23

Hi Damestjernelys

I am not trying to say that we as danes have not been ”Americanized” and that we don’t listen to American music, that’s not even the point I’m trying to make. I just want to voice my sadness when it comes to the, in my opinion, narrow-minded comments about Danes mostly coming from the Americans.
I have a North American wife, and we have been living in Denmark now for about 2 years. When we first moved back to Denmark my wife had a hard time fitting in and finding her grove. During the first 6 months, she did socialize with a few other North Americans but found their view on Danes very narrow-minded and therefore stopped seeing them. My wife has a very outgoing and smiling personality and decided to get involved in sports to get to meet the everyday Dane, and not just expats.
For the past 1½ years my wife has met lots of Danes and made lots of friends who have all accepted her 100%. I am sure there are Danish jerks out there, but you find jerks in every country, also in the US.
I still think you should keep an open mind.
Just to comment on the rest of your complaints.
The health care system is for everyone, rich or poor, in Denmark and if you don’t like it then get extra insurance which is a lot cheaper than in the states, Educations is for everyone what’s not to like about that ?, I personally am happy that everyone gets the opportunity to get an education not just the rich ones. About public transport, the busses and trains run all the time and don’t cost that much and you even get a tax discount if you have a longer commute to work. About public service in general, if you have a problem understanding how things work, which I can understand would be difficult, then you can always just call the commune and they are always happy to help.
Every country has bureaucracy so it’s to be expected. As far as I know its harder for a non American to get a work permit in the States than in Denmark. And even if you manage to get a work permit in the US, that does not mean your spouse can work. In my opinion there is a million advantages to living in Denmark and if you don’t see them, well then you have a decision to make.

Chloeonweb - Some Thoughts

|2009-06-23 12:54:58

''Ignorance is Bliss'' is the the motto (Thats how Danes live and that is my Advice to cope with them)

As we expats might have recognised that a large number of Danes grow up, with no knowledge about the world (except on being on holidays), neither is geography, culture and history their favorite subjects. So of course this results in the production of suprisingly quite many Jerks even in a country with a good social system comparitively. Combine this with some black humor and a comfortable life from the day you were born = perfect recipie to upset most of the people no matter where you are from.

So Friends its not their fault, its just a very good example that good system is not necessarily going to produce good people.

I have been in DK for 4 years and like most of it and you dont need Danish friends to live in Denmark or learn about the culture, you will be surprised to find a lot of foreigners who know a lot more.

PS: for the Danes out there I have a Danish girlfriend, I am not an American and I do have a Job!!!!

SeattleExPat - To Vesterbro

|2009-06-24 20:27:45

Hello Vesterbro – yes – there are plenty of wonderful things about Denmark and I don’t think there is a single person on this list who had expectations that Denmark would be just like America. I think you are missing a finer point about what folks are saying.

Until you have lived in a country where you don’t know the language or the culture, you can’t fully appreciate the frustrations we ex-pats encounter. Imagine moving to, say, Hungary or Estonia whose language is completely different from yours and difficult to master. Now, consider that you will only live there two to three years and in order to become fluent in the language you must invest at least 15 hours per week in study and practice for the next two to three years.

We really tried to learn Danish when we first arrived, but gave it up after about 10 months. It was a huge investment of time and I was seeing very little return on my investment. When I would try to speak Danish I very often was not understood. And there didn’t seem to be a middle ground. You have to speak it spot-on and in complete sentences. No one seems interested in meeting you half way. There were even times I was mocked for my incorrect pronunciation. That pretty much discouraged me from trying to learn the language. And as a result, I have felt isolated and ostracized in my 2 ½ years living here.

I am fortunate to have a net-work of ex-pat friends (from many different countries, by the way, not just the states). I gave it my best shot – my efforts were not rewarded.

lokesha - No tax excemption for Physically handicapped worke

|2009-06-25 10:32:58

I wondered when I heard about the tax system, which doesn't have any exemptions for disabled people.
I'm from Nepal, working here for a company and earning my salary which is sufficient only to spend my daily expenses (food, house rent, internet, expensive phone bill etc.,). Since I'm a physically handicapped, having my polio affected legs I know that, I can't work after my 40-43 years of age. Also I'll not be entitled for pension as I'm a forigner here and will be here for next 3-4 years.
I'm scaring for my future now a days, because of my disability and zero bank balance.
Government should give complete tax exemption for me kind of people, like other countries in the world.

Chloeonweb - Deja Vu

|2009-06-26 11:29:32

damestjernelys and SeattleExPat

I totally agree with you and have experienced the same....I hope atleast a few danes read this and learn to stop bickering..and be bloody supportive about the fact that people are trying to learn a language that you can probably use nowhere else and cant speak it to a majority of them as you arent perfect in it and the rest of them make fun of you.

I can speak 4 more languages and they cant get beyond Danish....

At some dinners I have often been told quite blankly '' You HAVE to learn Danish'' and ''you have been here for 3 years you should know it by now''.

Nowadays I stopped giving a damn and I just use English eventhough it isnt my first language.....

''If you dont know english you ought to Learn it'' is my favorite reply nowadays.

chris - damestjernelys - English teachers major in Englis

|2009-06-28 11:22:47

damestjernelys -

Just so you know, most teachers in the states DON'T have degrees in what they're teaching. Phys ed teachers teach math, people with history degrees teach science, etc. etc. Don't mix up what you "think" happens in the States with what actually happens.

JustAGuest - My story...

|2009-07-02 00:33:42

I have been following this forum quite closely and found the many similarities and differences between people to be quite fascinating. Here’s my story. I am a Canadian from Toronto and have been living in Copenhagen approximately 3 years and working as a teacher. I came on my own and relished at the chance to live abroad and have an international career in Europe. Throw in some generous vacation time and a well-paid job and it seemed like a pretty good deal.

How would I describe my experience here so far? Generally positive. I did not come here with high expectations as I knew very little about the country, people or culture. In fact, the little facts that I did know was from reading a Lonely Planet book. Through my time here I’ve gotten to know Denmark a little bit better. One of the best things about Denmark is the working environment. We get a nice catered lunch provided to us everyday, fresh fruit and snacks and a fridge full of drinks. Add in some cake and beer and there’s not much more an employee can ask for. The salaries are very high (before tax anyways) but money wasn’t the primary reason for coming here. We work 37 hours per week and get 6 weeks vacation per year. But more importantly is the respect employees get for their personal time. A lot of companies talk about work life balance in Canada but people really practice it here. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

How’s life like outside of work? Unlike a lot of people I know, I don’t have the benefit of a Danish partner so meeting and getting to know Danes on a personal level can be a bit of a challenge to put it mildly. Being proactive in this department is not easy as the locals already have well-established social networks, busy schedules and therefore not too much time or energy left to make new friends. By the way, I have learned the language as best I could and been an active member of a sports club so it isn’t like I’ve been sitting around waiting for things to happen. Am I disappointed? No, as I said I don’t have high expectations but it is always nice when I get to know people on the more personal level. Sadly, is this almost always with expatriates rather than the locals.

I am certainly not blaming the Danes for anything. This is their country, culture and language so why should they change it for someone else. In fact, the Danes that I have met in everyday life have been very respectful and helpful. Living here has been incredibly exhilarating at times, other times incredibly frustrating. That is really the best way I can describe it.

BABS - Evolution

|2009-08-23 01:46:22

I've reached a place of peace with being in Denmark for the time being.

My answer to the problem of keeping the smart, qualified people (and their families!!) here is to make sure that they are not forced to 'integrate'.

Oh sure, integrate the stupid underqualified ones all you like, but we smart ones - let us be who we are -you neeed us.

But that's the key. If we are foreigners here with options (i.e: we didn't flee our homecountries and come here at Denmark's mercy) then the Danish are going to have to do a lot more than wheel out a tray of dry rye bread and pig liver paste and cheerful phrases about how the Danish take a bit of getting used to.

Basically, life is good to us, we have choices. But Denmark needs to woo us a bit more so we will choose to continue to invest our time, money and families here.

What I think Missy Espersen hasn't bargained for is that a number of we lofty foreigners may sympathise the lower foreigners of Denmark (e.g: the ones not welcome or being brown nosed) as we can relate to being treated like pariahs in our communities because we are not conformists.

But again, life is basically good and Denmark is a place we can have a good time, but in order to do so, plenty of us have to ignore local traditions and attitudes and preserve our own.

Yes, the Danes can be welcoming, but there is no point pretending maltreatment in Denmark is of isolated incidence. The Danish system is far from perfect and far from ready to welcome foreigners.

That is the problem here. We are ready, they are not.

Leonardo - 109 non-exciting reasons and facts why Denmark it

|2009-08-24 21:07:21

I agree with the fact that Denmark it is not a perfect country, or at least it is not perfect for me.

But then again, which is the perfect country?

What does the perfect country has to have, to be perfect for everybody?

Or is it that we only consider as a perfect country that country from where we come from?

The truth is that for me the most perfect country it is the country where I was born and raised.

But even though Denmark for me it not a perfect country, I was able to write an article called 109 non-exciting reasons and facts why Denmark it COOL.

I wrote this article on my blog about Denmark called: www.to-love-work-study-travel-denmark.blogspot.com

Kiwimor - Denmark can be a challenge.

|2009-08-25 15:20:23

Kia-ora.
Being relatively new to Denmark I am interested in the comments posted and different experiences ex-pats have had.
It is sad that some have had some negative experiences here and have left (or want to). I understand how tough it is. I am currently trying to find a job so I can learn more Danish (with a cpr number) and at least try to integrate a little. I am frustrated that as a British citizen married to a Dane with a Danish child (I have previously lived in Aarhus) that it is difficult to obtain permission to stay. Immigration has indeed become a lot more strict than when I was last here last. It is a very unpleasant way to 'welcome' foregners here.
However I have lived in other countries and it has always been difficult to settle in a new place and to understand the local customs. It may take a while but you do get used to how things are. I can totally relate to feeling many of the feelings expressed here especially the negative attitudes some Danes have towards foregners. I was referred to (at my old legestue in Aarhus) as the "ung mor". I found it hurtful as it was meant as a slur, but I tried to focus on the good people there. I hated also how some Danes would straight out refused to speak English with me and only spoke Danish with my husband. I now know it was that they can feel intimidated speaking English with a native speaker. Despite my gripes I do love Denmark. I enjoy trying to pronounce words (as if I had potatoes in my mouth) and the rich history and customs here. I like how family focused the Danes are and the how we as a family are together because of this. In Britain or New Zealand we would be to busy working a 40+ hour week. I think the health, transportation and education system is wonderful and works well in comparison to New Zealand and Britain (where there is privatisation and a large divide between rich and poor). I guess we should all try and focus on what is the positives of living here and if our families are happier and enjoying a better quality of life than if we were living in our respective countries. Hopefully as Denmark (government and 'some' individuals) allows itself to become tolerant of other nationalities, we can look forward to a more welcoming or 'hyggelig' society we can all enjoy.

Kiwimor - post script.

|2009-08-25 15:34:23

I don't think Danes intentionally try to exclude foreigners. They are even reserved with their own countrymen. It is always easier to strike up a conversation with someone in your mother-tounge. This is seen as unwelcoming and unfriendly and I am usually frustrated by this. Then again I have met a lot of friendly Danes by striking up impromptu conversation with them. Just don't expect automatic friendship. The Danes that are well travelled are the ones that are most open. The 'Danish farmhouse' analogy works well here, that while it is difficult to become friends with Danes (like trying to enter a typical Danish farmhouse). Once your in, you are always welcomed and have a true friend for life.

Kiwimor - Oh and a note to 'Bob'

|2009-08-25 16:25:51

The E.U member countries do allow for the "freedom of movement of goods and people" although with the exception of Denmark, a E.U country that can make it really difficult for other E.U citizens to reside here. If you have a job and work contract before coming that is fine and dandy, but for anyone else you are given 6 months. I know that is plenty to find work, still it can create stress especially if you have a young child on the long waiting list for vuggestue. If you cannot find work, have 80,000kr savings or become a student (also you have to be fluent in Danish) then you can try the family reunification visa with it's many restrictions and 3-7 months waiting to see if you will be allowed to have a cpr number. It is a long time to wait, especially if you want to learn Danish. It is really not that fair considering in Britain my husband had an interview and then was given a N.I and NHS card. He was effectively treated with the same rights as a British citizen. While it was a bit of an ordeal, still, it does not compare to the Danish system. I am not put off by any aspect of Denmark and it's culture, taxation system...etc, but rather the difficult and stressful process of being able to stay here. I am worried about the part of the immigration form that states how long "your spouse" has had to be residing here in Denmark. My husband has spent half of his life here and the other in New Zealand. What also angers me is that Danes who marry a 'udlaending' are almost punished for that and for their time spent away. I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed by Lene Espersen and co.
All I can say to summarize my feelings is that it is very horrible to feel in limbo.
I guess I can thank Pia K. and co. and their obsession with homogeneous Denmark. Tak Pia.

Exiled - I will not be staying

|2009-08-27 16:40:25

Like many of the posters before me I am a skilled and highly qualified expat currently living in DK.

Again like many others on this board I am fortunate to be able to work pretty much where ever in the world my skills are required and I have indeed done so for the past 10 years.

Denmark is not a place I will choose to renew my contract in (I have another 2 years to go).

In short, higher taxes, poor levels of service (compared to what you pay in the public sector and non existent in the private) and a very much alive Jante system means I will be upping sticks and choosing to pay a more reasonable rate of tax where I can actually see the benefit (Swiss trains spring to mind).

tom1980 - soooooooooooooo............

|2009-08-27 18:12:49

what happened to the "foreigners network" and the 4.5 million kroner budget?

Is the network up and running yet so we can join it, or should we "stay off the grid" as they say in the terminator films?

Instinct tells me to make like an ostrich, keep smiling and keep my mouth shut at all times.

Constantin - .

|2009-08-27 18:06:01

You do that tom, I hear there's a tax on nagging coming up.

lemmich - Expat in Denmark - the network is here

|2009-09-02 11:31:21

@tom1980 The "foreigners network" is up and running, alive and well, and pretty much fully functional at: www.expatindenmark.com

Please feel free to join the grid, and don't hesitate to let us know what you think (either by mail or via the Expat forum). Of course we appreciate it if you could get involved AND keep smiling ;-)

We also hope to see you and others at future events.

Regards,

Peter Lemmich
Expat in Denmark

Leonardo - Using the foreigners Network to help others

|2009-09-12 15:24:28

Using the Foreigners Network, I strongly believe that it is necessary to spread the word to try to help Karen.

Karen is a mother from Denmark seeking for the English-Speaking father of her baby, the little August.

Good luck Karen, this is my way of helping you.

http://to-love-work-study-travel-denmark.blogspot.com/2009/09/danish-mother-seeking-father-of-little.html

splat - I chose life

|2009-09-13 00:26:07

Danes have created a state where humans do not NEED other humans. They happily pay 50% of their income so that they themselves do not need to look out for each other, some agency will do it, it is someone elses job...a professionals. The result, if you talk to a Dane on the street they often look at you like you are mad or just stare as if you were from another planet. They are at a loss as how to react to spontaneous human contact.
After 10 years there I moved south to a poorer more chaotic country where although there is far less financial security there is much more ...how to put it...life.

splat - Karen is a fake (to Leonardo)

|2009-09-13 22:21:51

Leonardo...Karen, the Dane with the baby in thee video is an actress. The video is a publicity stunt....check it out at....
http://adland.tv/content/karen-danish-mother-seeking-actually-ditte-arnth

npandjmclay - Karen, the Turistkontor invention

|2009-09-14 09:12:07

Leonardo, Karen is a figment of Ekstra Bladet's promtions dept. and some lively tourist board folk.

tom1980

|2009-09-14 14:42:00

I chose not to choose life: I chose something else. Denmark.

suraiya - Danes must help foreigners integrate!

|2009-09-28 13:06:40

I am a Pakistani, married to a second generation Pakistani immigrant. Have been working for a Patent consultancy company for the last 6 years. Having married and moved to Copenhagen 7 years ago, i must admit i don't think i have any major complaints. I find Danes to be very tolerant on the street but what makes me question them is the parties they vote for who make the Govt. If the common Dane is tolerant of foreigners then why do we see anti foreign politicians?
The weather is unbearable but that's no body's fault, i love the way they encage cycling here, i wish all countries would be like that. I wish they would try to understand other religions and cultures a bit more and be a bit more respectful towards them. I have great respect for my colleagues and the company i work for, i don't think i could find a better place and i think that's got a lot to do with the Danish work culture. Danes must realize that Speaking Danish is not the be all and end all of integration!

tom1980

|2009-11-17 20:21:35

I would recommend that any "internationals" read the following article by Philip Jones, a Welshman. He sums up this entire thread.

http://www.nylonmanden.dk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=177&Itemid=43

tomnashdk - damestjernelys ---

|2009-11-18 12:42:21

"Resistance is futile... You will be assimilated..." (from Star Trek, the Borg.)

Congratulations on your assimilation!

It is not actually so bad here as long as one keeps an open mind and a (non-Danish) sense of humor. Have fun.

magic1964 - nostalgia....

|2009-11-19 10:06:24

Many immigrants become nostalgic and have the tendancy to focus on the good things and nice memories they have from home and of course they forget easily the bad ones.....and yes at the same time they start focusing on the bad things existing in Denmark..... ignoring the good ones...
It´s a bit my case.....sorry

If Denmark is an easy and pleasant country to live I still think the state could give better service without increasing taxes......there is a grey zone in the welfare system, a grey zone made of people who stay out of work for years, a grey zone that has become tabboo to speak about it...

rantingbrit - Magic - nostalgia

|2009-11-19 13:24:36

On taxes and services. Does anyone know just how many beauracrats there are in the public sector? I am informed that 1 in 3 (working) Danes are employed in this sector.

Hell not all of them are providing a service on the ground.. so is that where the tax money goes? Is that the real taboo subject?

tomnashdk - rantingbrit -

|2009-11-19 13:59:29

I have heard the same number, i.e., approximately 33% of Danes are employed by the government. Yes, those state employees pay taxes, but their salaries come out of OUR taxes, and then they pay some of OUR tax money back to the state as their tax money. The funny money trail here would drive you clinically nuts if you tried to follow the details (and then you would be on paid permanent medical leave.)

Macro view:

33% of Danes are employed by the state.
Somewhere around 6% of Danes are currently unemployed. You can argue this number depending upon measuring methodology, but DK says 4% and the EU says 6%. Roughly 1% of Danes are "permanently unemployable" due to medical reasons, i.e., economic wards of the state. Grand total: 40% of Danes are on the dole in one form or another.

That means we poor sods, the remaining 60%, are footing the entire Danish tax bill.

Now here comes the JFD Gang with better numbers and a bigger rant... ;)

tomnashdk

|2009-11-19 14:06:18

P.S. - every time I see a 1 million dkk + special purpose John Deere tractor with an airport array of big yellow flashing lights, a huge soap tank, and an automatic floor mop on the end of a hydraulic arm washing the roadside reflector posts, I wonder, "where is good old USA- or UK-style investigative journalism when you really need it?"

As the sign says in American road construction zones, "your tax dollars at work."

npandjmclay - rantingbrit, no

|2009-11-19 20:34:45

The public sector in DK accounts for more than half of all jobs. That's why taxation is so high and it's a vicious spiral. More bureaucrats, more tax, higher prices, fewer wealth-creating jobs, more tax.....

COP2007 - Thank you Denmark!

|2009-11-23 13:21:47

I’m not sure that this initiative is really worth the effort. Danes appear to think that because we have left our countries and come here that we actually want to be Danish, or want to completely change ourselves. It’s obvious by reading these pages that this usually isn’t the case. I came here for an experience…to see how others lived, to live in Europe, to benefit from the child friendly approach to work / life, to learn. I didn’t come to become Danish. I didn’t think that this would be required, to be honest. In most of the other places and countries in which I have lived, the international community is considered an assett to the local society. In Denmark, we are treated with contempt.

I find it hypocritical of the Danes to preach all of this “Jante” non-sense when they clearly differentiate themselves from others. Danes feel that we should assimilate and change our ways because we are now in DK. But this argument comes from a people who have more “opt-outs” within the European Union then probably any other country. Danes want to reap the benefits that being a member state of Europe may provide, but want to keep their own identities in the process. They want their own money, don’t want to be told how to run their defense, their judicial systems…. On a macro level, they are facing the exact same issues that we “invandrer” are facing….to assimilate or to not assimilate. Should I have to sacrifice my known way of life simply because I have made a choice to live amongst people that have different laws, experiences and priorities than I do? Denmark obviously feels that when it comes to them and the rest of Europe, the answer is no. They don’t want to change….but they expect everybody else to want to.

I feel that there are many, many good qualities about life in Denmark, but I also agree with many of the comments posted here regarding “The Danes”. For me, I actually find the differences very interesting and usually entertaining. I know many Danes, and we have a nice enough time with one another. My biggest fear, however, is that my young children become indoctrinated with this ridiculous Danish idea that you shouldn’t consider yourselves different then anyone else. I won’t allow them to become robotic Danes who will be completely ill-prepared to deal with real, everyday life outside of these borders.

All in all, my wife, children and I have enjoyed this experience. The most telling part of our story is that my wife, a Dane, is so shocked at the Danish society, having lived away from it for 10 years, that she no longer wishes to raise our children here. Not because of safety, or pollution, or crime….but because she wants them to believe in themselves, treat others with respect and care and feel good about who they are as individuals. To us, Denmark is clearly not a place to nurture such characteristics.

We are going to take the blunt advice of many of the posters here and go back to where we came from. Hopefully, some day, there will be a little more introspection from this society. The model and system that has been created here have so much potential, if only for the Danes.

As many of us do every year around the new year, I will think back and reflect on the year that was and ask myself if it was all worth it. I mean, I will be back in a place where I will have to drive everywhere, have to pay for a portion of my own health care, will be exposed to more pollution, crime, over-weight people and a government that can’t get it’s act together just to mention a few of the joys awaiting us. (not to mention the Mexicans…oh no!!) Our friends ask us how could we possibly want to go back to all that…?

As I watch the sun set into the Pacific and see my kids laughing and playing in the surf on New Year’s Day, it will be easy to say that after our 3 year experience in Denmark, we wouldn’t trade it for anyplace.

I have Denmark and the Danes to thank for actually enhancing my positive feelings of home.

nyquist - Udlændingestyrlsen

|2009-11-23 21:29:31

Hi there

I very much enjoy living in Denmark, and think the country has a lot to offer a foreigner.

I do however think that the immigration process needs to be seriously overhauled since skilled workers seem to have the hardest time immigrating and those that have nothing to offer seem to have the easiest time.

A foreigner marrying a dane can get permanent residence after 3 years but a professional paying super tax into the coffers of the government must wait a whole 7 years. [no offence to foreigners who came to DK on a marriage visa]. Why should I have to wait 7 years before I can get permanent residence when somebody else can get it after 3 years? And add to this the fact that there is a good chance that this "somebody else" is probably not even paying half the amount of tax as what I am paying, and probably never will.

There are lots of benifits of getting DK citizenship if you are a non EU national. But 9 years for citizenship??? A person who came to DK and has been sponging off the social system since day 1 has no problem waiting 9 years for citenzenship, since they probably have nowhere else to go anyway. But how is that attractive to a professional? If Denmark wants to retain more tax-paying professionals then the government cannot use the "skær alle over én kam" mentality, because (a) they'll be left with just spongers while all the juicy tax payers have moved to Canada and Australia and (b) they'll go bankrupt before you can say "Jens Robinsen".

JoeThePlumber - To COP2007 - Perfectly said!

|2009-11-24 09:46:09

Well said COP2007. I too came for the experience and to try. I was open minded, welcoming and interested. The experience after 3 years, shows me who the danes really are. My wife too is Danish, and we won't be raising our children here for the long run. We certainly don't want her to become a typical dane.

I am asked all the time if I will become a Danish Citizen... No thank you! Not now, not ever. There is no future here in Denmark.

The danes actually believe they have more knowledge and skills than others. Wrong! After all, the Jante laws state that.

SortHest - damestjernelys-Nyquist- Why don't professionals ge

|2009-11-25 21:52:42

Poor poor spouses and refugees. They have to behave themselves, not sponge off the state and do a couple of basic courses to get permanent residence after 3 years. I really feel sorry for them???

On the other hand, non-EU professionals on the positiv-list, who pay super-tax, have den danske studie prøve (dansk prøve 6) and are active in 5 or more associations, have to wait for 7 years before even applying for permanent residence! And if we should change our basis for being in Denmark, all the years that we have already been here can be discarded, and we might have to start again from the beginning!

Come on, Danish government, if you want to attract people, change the laws to at least give us the chance to prove that we are integrated! If the current tough economic climate resulted in us being jobless for a while, we could be kicked out of Denmark. And if that happened, there is no way we would come back to Denmark again and "wait" another 7 years.

deka - A good idea,,,,,, and,,,,

|2009-11-26 17:10:46

As always I have a lot to say on these subjects, but I’ll start by saying that the initiative is a good idea, and I’m sure it will have some degree of success. The positive side of it is that they acknowledge the need to attract and then guide these “new comers” so they can have better odds of keeping them here long-term. And perhaps like some of the “pro Denmark” commenter’s to this blog (who shall remain nameless) , they may also be spared seeing the “other side” of Denmark that is anything but welcoming and tolerant to foreigners. It is clear to me by some of the comments here that there are not only Danes but also some foreigners who really don’t see the extent of the problem, nor how it indeed affects a great number of the population (who are not Danish nationals). And while having opposing opinions and viewpoints is the foundation for constructive debates, I can’t help but feel disappointed and frustrated that something so obvious as the hostility to foreigners in general is not at least acknowledged as true.
Mermaid: I truly believe that things can and will change,,BUT….I’m sorry to say you are right,,, the majority of Danes have absolutely no interest in integrating with foreigners and are deeply suspicious of anything they perceive to be non-Danish. You would be surprised at how many others have considered to taking the “chill pill” , but skipped the gammel Dansk. And as for the crash course in etiquette… well..I think that may be as difficult and frustrating to accomplish as integration. I have been around Danes since I was a teenager and for all the good things you can say about them,,, having etiquette and manners (as we know it) are not priorities for them. So to all those who experience people not saying thank you for holding the door , rudeness, pushing infront of the line , bumping into you and not saying anything, being ignored, pushed, shoved, ordered around, , selfish and arrogant behaviour, (unless they have been drinking) …and most of all..DONT expect them to say please! … they dont have a word for it ** the best advice I can give is,,, take a chill pill,,,shake your head, smile ,… and just remember not to behave in the same manner no matter how long you’re here. It is simply “Danish culture” … that’s the way they are and if you don’t like it,,,well……you know what they will say****
Stranger; you’re not alone the experiences you describe are common place, it’s a very sad fact that it appears that these experiences are commonplace for most foreigners ….
Giro: Good point and question… one would hope that all these comments and observations would be forwarded to politicians who would then research it to see if there is any validity in the “accusations and assertions”. I have been and continue to be on a crusade to bring all this to their attention, problem is, even when they get the research handed to them , documented research, statistics, surveys, etc etc,,, they don’t act on it. The bottom line is, there is more political opposition and resistance to promoting integration, than there is to encouraging it. If you see the research on the political opposition to integration… it becomes VERY clear why the overt hostility to foreigners it accepted as the “norm”.
And finally,,,, to all those who continually insist that ,its not really like that here, its self pity, lack of effort to integrate, whining, disproportionate, self indulgent , lack of motivation, warped and isolated view points, weak mentality, socially incompetent , only a minority who are affected (like the misguided commenter’s here) etc etc etc….. You should count yourselves lucky that you either don’t or won’t really see the injustices and the extent of them. And in that respect, it makes sense that you see all these other comments and experiences as negligible.
All I can say is; ignoring the facts,..Doesn’t change the facts.

deka - Food for thought

|2009-11-26 21:18:01

Denmark wants the minorities to integrate and beuseful co-citizens. No one can disagree with this. But integration should be a mutual process where equal rights go hand in hand with obligations, responsibilities and most importantly with equal opportunities. The Danish
government urgently needs to introduce concrete policies.
Civil society NGOs can be of great help in bringing to the authorities anti-discriminatory plans of action, by encouraging minorities to take their part of responsibility in integration.
Within the last seven years, the current right wing government and its
Parliamentary partner (the far right Danish People’s Party) have
argued that integration of non-European minorities can only be achieved if their
numbers are drastically reduced. While this goal has been successfully reached,
a true integration process has not been put in place. There is one interesting
statistic which the Danish government does not publicize, which is the total
number of people leaving Denmark every year. According to the Danish Bureau
of Statistics, in 2007 a total of 64.656 people entered Denmark to stay, but
41.566 people also left that same year. This includes both Danes and ethnic
minorities.

SortHest - Spouses and refugees ARE treated better than profe

|2009-11-26 23:03:51

At the risk of fuelling a flame war, I still maintain that spouses and refugees are treated significantly better than professionals. I initially overlooked the "more than one year of legal residence in Denmark prior to marrying" condition for applying for permanent residence after three years. However, even if this condition is not met, non-EU spouses and refugees can still apply for permanent residence after 5 years - a good 2 years before non-EU professionals can. Spouses and refugees are free to change jobs or study before they have permanent residence without being subject to Udlændingestyrelsen's scrutiny, while professionals are not.

Yes, it can be tough for spouses and refugees who lose their jobs or businesses, and have to thereafter work for three years to qualify for permanent residence again. What I am trying to say is that professionals from outside the EU have even less flexibility, more scrutiny from Udlændingestyrelsen, and significantly longer to wait before being able to apply for permanent residence. If we lose our jobs only once within the 7 years before we get permanent residence, we risk being thrown out of the country, and then having to start from scratch to try to work our way up to 7 years again.

Reforming the system to at least give non-EU professionals similar rights to non-EU spouses and refugees would not only be more fair, but would also help to attract the needed foreign professionals to Denmark.

LeFiffre - Difficult Decisions Ahead

|2009-11-29 05:29:12

I’m a foreigner of Danish descent who recently contemplated a homecoming. I must have a genetic memory because my politics are socialist, egalitarian, and trend toward communal efforts to solve common problems: Ride bicycles and tax the smog-spewing gas guzzlers off the road; build wind turbines and PV panels; enact universal health care; recycle everything; and run tram, metro, and rail lines everywhere. And besides, the self-evident beauty of Danish furniture design and household items must surely reflect more refined national sensibilities, no?

So I thought I’d pack up my twenty years’ industry experience and hard-earned (and paid for) university education and move to the Shangri-La of equality and social rationalism. I made a plan and undertook research on language acquisition, potential employer targeting, etc., which led me to this column. Thank you all for your comments. I’ve read enough to draw these conclusions with confidence:

It’s clear to me that The National Network for Foreign Employees is a quixotic undertaking because the average Dane doesn’t want to assimilate immigrants, and 4.5M DKK won’t change that. I’m staying at home because I’d be unwelcome in DK by everyone but the bankers and captains of industry. Sure, you want my skills on board, but you really don’t want me. I understand. The Saudis feel the same way about their Filipino maids. Evidently, DK firms don’t pay enough to offset this inhospitability.

While I’m in love with the idea and ideals of Denmark, I shouldn’t be surprised to learn that foremost among them is the impulse to cultural self preservation. I understand and applaud this sentiment. If there’s anything the Scandinavians understand better than most—and have since 8 June 793 CE—is the mentality and consequence of invasion and cultural imperialism. Here’s a tiny country of 5.5 million people who, save for their staunch resistance, could be swallowed up whole, their culture diluted and erased like a watercolor in the rain. (Thanks Al Stewart.)

It is no longer longboats, but a never-ending flotilla of global media that threatens to erode a sense of distinct Danish identity, of community, and of safety in homologation. While the media can’t be staunched, Denmark can hold the line on immigration which is like spice in one’s food—a little is good, but a lot is not. The debate is not unique to Denmark, but perhaps most Danes understand this in their bones because they’re clear on the question: Denmark is for Danes.

Less clear are the economic consequences that could be more uniquely Danish. If there really are 40K highly skilled jobs unfilled by 2015, the trend could spell deep trouble for the nation because there’s no easy remedy for popular sentiments of national insularity.

What if the luxurious Danish system of free education until the age of 30 should prove insufficient to incentivize the emerging native work force to acquire adequate skills to meet the nation’s needs? As “tomnashdk—ranting Brit” began calculating above, 33 percent of Danes work for the government, 6 percent are unemployed, 18 percent are under 14 years old, and 16 percent are over 65 years of age—that leaves roughly 27 percent of Danes to do economically productive work today. Never mind the retiring boomers tomorrow.

Is it possible that DK needs expats more than expats need DK?

The news gets worse: The median age in DK is 40.5 years—boomers are trending greyer at the extreme top end of the global scale—while the population growth rate is a meager 0.28 percent (1.74 children born/woman in 2009) in spite of all the family emphasis. There’s a net migration rate of 2.48 per thousand (i.e., leaving DK) as well. My question is this: In 30 years, who’s going to keep the lights on and pay the pensions? As the CIA World Factbook notes, “A major long-term issue [facing DK] will be the sharp decline in the ratio of workers to retirees.” The Danish labor force will need to be highly skilled and productive indeed. Could this be the conundrum pondered by the bankers and Chamber of Commerce behind NNFE? There’s no surprise, then, that expats are taxed for pensions they’ll never collect—the DK government knows what it’s doing: Velkommen, fjols!

Given workforce trends, the final decision may be one that most Danes aren’t ready contemplate: cultural self preservation versus, well, self preservation. To bend the trend, Danish leaders will need to do more than throw kroner at a website and te-og-kiks parties.

Here’s my counteroffer, Danmark: If you recruit and employ my proven skill set, and you don’t have to pay for my education or retirement, then I shouldn’t have to pay for yours. Fair enough? I’ll learn your language. Call off your taxes and make it eronomically worth my while to endure your social ostracism during the term of my residency. Institute a defined, uniform guest-worker program of attractive terms, with special attention to limitations in scope and duration. Create an discrete, enlightened, and streamlined ministry to process guest workers in and OUT (bypassing byzantine bureaucracy), and wrangle greedy landlords. Allow me to register my car at EU norms, but force me to take it home when I leave. Fair! We won’t talk about citizenship—it’s not on the table.

Place a sell-by date on every foreign worker and perhaps the average insular Dane will be more amenable to the idea of temporary guests and less inclined to see them as raiders come to plunder cultural norms and repay the questionable karma of their Viking forefathers. “In three or five years this stranger will go home with a better understanding of our country, so maybe I can summon a modicum of hospitability.” Works for everyone, right?

Short of that, and notwithstanding my ideals, I can only conclude that my most recent Danish ancestors made the right decision.

Constantin - LeFiffre

|2009-11-29 16:45:31

Probably the best comment yet.

My 2 cents.

Frederickpettit - being brave

|2009-12-01 21:48:34

In comparison to many people on here I find myself in quite a unique position, in so much as being a student here, and now livng permanently having moved from england in august to live with my girlfriend of 5 years. (she is, ofcourse, danish)

So i have a good idea of what denmark and Copenhagen is all about, visiting every month or so for the last 5 years and now living here. At first I fell in love with the whole country, its values, its clean environment, all the positive things that we all associate with the country.

Alas, i have begun to encounter some of the problems with rudeness that so many of you on here have mentioned. I was very surprised, and excuse me for sounding arrogant, but I really felt that being british would prevent that, however quite the opposite, now that I am here for good, I have branched out and tried to meet people outside of my own social circle. Th results have not been good.

ex: Looking for a job as I have no funding for my studies, its been a nightmare. I feel like an unskilled peasant , not fit to clean floors. When actually I am a graduate, now taking a masters, and have looked high and low for work-unsuccessfully.

The main issue I have though is the idea that "you dont need to speak danish and english is the working language, RUBBISH!"....so many potential employers have a reall issue with it, and even if its not that, the attitude when I have humbly looking into work in (bars, restaurants, hotel, so on so on) has been shocking, its like you have walked in , insulted their mother, and demanded a job...people are so negative and rude, it made me very miserable...and i still dont understand the reason behind it...perhaps everybody is very defensive of their jobs given the current economic climate but still, I wanted to hit some of them, they way they spoke to me.

I love the place, but cant help but feel some of its citizens arrogantly believe that they are on a higher level than many other foreigners...I can say now for sure that anybody who treats other people like that is no better than I am.

So, if anybody hears of any work for english speakers in copenhagen be sure to let me know...As I am sure you can tell from my post...I am not fussy what it is!

tlobz - DK Visit

|2010-01-09 00:57:49

Wow. It's funny that I ended up on this forum while searching for info about Denmark. I live in Los Angeles California and know nothing about Denmark. I decided to check it out because I am looking for a vacation spot for my upcoming vacation. Thanks for the recommendations but I think Australia may be a better choice. Think about getting a new PR agency.

MAS - LeFiffre - Difficult personal decision

|2010-01-24 07:17:09

Really good conclusion..!

But, how will DK afford their luxury welfare system..?

…Well, many Danish companies are quickly expanding their activities abroad, acquiring other companies in America, Asia, etc., considering the lack of local qualify work force and rocketing labor costs. So, anyway “foreigners” will support great part of DK “paradisiatic” system. 27% of 5,5 M Danes produce enough to get a “per capita” of US 40.000?, I don’t think so.

I live in Chile with my danish partner, we have 2 children and we are thinking to move to DK during this year (well, she want to go back), but I am really concern about my professional future (acceptance) in DK. I already had an experience in 2005 trying to get a job in DK, but like many of you mentioned here, DK has so strict rules that make almost impossible for a foreigner, especially if you don’t belong to the EU, to get a job. Even though you meet all requirement from immigration offices, profession short lists, local organizations, and so on, and you are over qualify for some positions.

Finally, and after read every single post in this blog, previously being in DK many times, and get some direct feedback from some friend living there, I have to accept the danish statement: Denmark is only for danes.

bronny123 - Ms

|2010-02-02 09:21:27

As I seem to be the only Aussie to have read these damning comments, I thought, that, as we have a vested interest in one "Dane" (Crown Princess Mary), I also would like to comment. To be fair to those before me, I have only been in Denmark many years ago, and then as a tourist. I was treated very pleasantly, and really began my love affair with Scandinavia right then. However, since then I have only been back eight years ago, to Stockholm, which I now see, personally, as the most beautiful city I have ever visited. Like many Kanga/kiwis, I have travelled quite a good deal. I have had an enriched upbringing, (in N Z) and a great working life in Oz, teaching at the School which the Prince of Wales spent six happy months.
Therefore I was dumbed down with dismay at the negative comments about Dk. You may think I am not qualified to write this at all, but even as an outsider, I too, have experienced the rudeness of the Danish people. This began when I tried very hard to find a Danish "friend" to exchange emails with,three years later, you can guess my results I'm quite sure. Friendless I remain. Then I bought a great deal of Gerog Jensen jewellery from a very nice shop in Aarhus. I have pleasant enough exchanges with them, & thought I had made a breakthrough when the owner emailed me. Having watched "The Eagle" on our multicultural tv channel here, I bought the dvd, and now know it so well, I can almost recite the English dialogue. I tried to contact the lead actor, Hallgrim, (Jens Albinus) to pass on my congratulations for his brilliant acting. Three years later, not a word. I will be seventy this year, so I'm not exactly a screaming fan!!!. Despite knockbacks, I sent an exquisite hand crafted pewter dish to my seller of G J. For Christmas; also letters to two other Danish acquaintances. On our Christmas Eve, I received a hurried thank you from the shop's owner, and from the others, nothing. So your emails sent warning bells through my frail old brain, and one or two neurones shook themselves awake, and came to a conclusion. I had promised myself a final o/seas trip to Copenhagen for my seventy-ith big day. Now, I am not going. It's not your fault, any of you. BUT, I live in a country where 130 different nations are happily integrated. Over ninety different languages are spoken. On 26 Jan we celebrated Australia Day, and over 30,00 new immigrants were naturalised. We have quarterly similar events, naturalisation days, when huge numbers also become citizens of my beautiful land. So how does someone like me fare in a closed society that my, and your experiences present such negative traits.

P D. I am looking forward to, now, a lovely electric natural latex huge bed, where I can read, and dream. And I can stay here and enjoy the company of my multi racial friends in peace. Over really good coffee, introduced by the Italians, and a glorious meal prepared by any one of the Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodean, Spanish, Japanese..............the list is endless, and they gave us, (the Anglos) such a lot! Oh, plus a really good Australian wine. Next week I am going to two Nigel Kennedy concerts. Life truly is bliss, in my city of four million!

mtafiti - Its got to be Copenhagen

|2010-02-11 16:37:52

Well, I have to admit I am pretty surprised. I am an American who has lived in Denmark 10 years. I speak Danish badly and I suspect I always will. But it amazes me how many people, including apparently many fellow Americans, really dislike the place.

The culture is definately different but I have just not experienced the kinds of negativity from Danes being described here. Cold? Rude?Unfriendly? Danes??

So my theory is that most of you guys live in Copenhagen. My friends in Vendsyssel tell me that people in Copenhagen are really wierd. They must be right. Although, come to think of it in the total of about 2 months I have spent in that city in my life I did not run into rudeness from more than a couple of taxi drivers.

So welcome to Jutland, it is nice out here.

Truthtician - Good bacon..nothing else!

|2010-03-11 18:33:30

As a foreigner with permanent citizenship in Denmark, I can only say this country is the perfect module for any aspiring Dictator. There is no culture in Denmark, just a lot of bankrupt pride and a frail desperate attempt to hang on to self identity by upholding kinder garden traditoins.
It is so incredble that this passive non self thinking nation have contributed to some great innovative, idealistic and technological wonders to this world. Unfortunately the `Einsteins´of Denmark are either dead or they have cleverly immigrated elsewhere in world. What we have now is an amoebic nation with multiple symptoms of degradation in politics, economy and social behaviour. The worst thing is that the every day Dane just dont realise it, and the ones that do dont care enough to do anything about it. At heart Danes are ok, just like most of the worlds population, but where i find Danes disconnect themeselves from the rest of the world is.... there Willful Ignorance of whats going on around them.
I sometimes wonder if Denmark is a prototype experiment for the new world order, a living Bilderberg concept. If people say that they are happy in Denmark, then i believe they mean it, I would prefer to call it a `submissive content´. In Denmark, nothing is percieved to be outstanding triumph and nothing is percieved to be an awful tragedy. Mandelas release or the fall of the Berlin Wall was just `ok´ (godt nok), 9/11 or the Haiti earthquake was just a `shame´ (det var synd). Danish society is very simple, it is easy to adapt here, just dont expect anything more than an existance. One thing you can look forward to is, when its your birthday the whole neighbourhood will know, almost every Dane with a garden has a flag pole in it, the Danish flag is hoisted for all to see. Danish flags are hung outside frontdoors and in flowerpots, and you can expect your birthday cake to be riddled with minature Danish flags. Danish kiddies are lucky, their cake is formed as human figure lavished with sweets and of course mini-flags, and the best part of it is, the `birthday kid´, is given a knife and has to cut the head off the human figure, and all the guests must scream their heads off as this cute ritual is performed. Just one more thing, to sum up Denmark and its personality I would coin this phrase..."I dont really care if my wife is ugly, so long as the neighbours wife is uglier".

buzz - I liked it , some good some bad

|2010-03-23 18:34:42

It has been a few decades since I worked In Copenhagen. But, like anything new, It took a while to feel like it was home. for me about 10 months. I was there three years. I met my neighbors and went to social events. I knew other expats and often partied with them and Danish friends. My wife hated the place and cried when we drove past the American embassy. I think it was partly because she didn't have much to do as spouses couldn't work. I have gone back to Denmark every year or two for the last thirty years because I miss the place. The quality of life is fantastic. The country is beautiful and peaceful and safe. One of my sons was born there. he is a musician and when their band played in Copenhagen and he announced he was born there, the response floored him. So many people wanted to take him out and tell him about the country and teach him to speak Danish.
So in my book, working in Denmark was one of the smartest things I have done; going back to visit has been heavenly.

donnie

|2010-03-24 08:41:06

been here 9months have been treated very well.met some great people, help in the stores has been for the most part fantastic have made many friends. yes ive met rude danes go to newyork and see how many rude people u meet.its their country,if you dont like it ,then leave. if they dont like me i dont care i came and married a dane i dont care what danes think of me.i like them and treat their ways with respect learning their language way it should be. if i dont like it i can leave i like different

donnie

|2010-03-24 08:45:03

oh yeah im an american and i live in copenhagen. p.s, great pork and even the low cost beer is good

Nebbiolo - Same old

|2010-03-24 13:38:19

I've been here for 18 months, and to be truthful, I regret coming. From the ridiculously small, understocked supermarkets, to the early closing hours, to the lack of good manners, to the rampant jingoism, to the quite boring culture, to the uniformity and lack of variety, to the quite obsessive attention given to the most insignificant detail, to those damned flags everywhere you go, and to the ugly, treeless landscape,which is beret of any natural diversity ('beautiful Denmark', what a joke)

The country does suck, and it sucks big time.

ted_z - Stay away!!!!!

|2010-04-21 14:16:23

I don’t hate Denmark. I don’t hate the Danes. I just think is the MOST BORING PLACE in the WORLD. I think Denmark is the place where they send old people to die.
And when I say BORING, is because people are like retards when outside in the streets. They don’t talk to each other, they don’t comment the weather, they don’t talk at all. They are just so into themselves that they don’t need anyone, everyone is below them.
And for their “Freedom”, almost all countries have freedom, that’s nothing new, and from my experience, this freedom shit is bullshit, I actually think it is the other way, it’s really oppressed, so much that all people are alike, it’s rare to see someone who stands from the crowd. They are like tin soldiers in a metal box, but covered with expensive hand bags and jewerly.
I could give an advice to ANYONE who is ever coming to Denmark, is STAY AWAY, DON”T WASTE YOUR PRECIOUS LIFE, in such an arrogant, boring, country. You will see after years, that your life it’s exactly the same as when you came, because, NOTHING HAPPENS, it’s boring as hell. The only thing that does happen, is that you will be ever increasingly be taxed more, and charged for every little tiny fucking thing. And the money, god knows where it goes. Because Copenhagen is ****, the transport system is always breaking down, the buses are on strike all the time, and the danes couldn’t care less because a bus strike it’s actually something exciting in this ******** BORING PLACE.

magic1964 - Why some much frustration ?

|2010-04-21 15:52:48

I think people like ted_z have a midlife crisis or can´t get laid. Maybe they go thru depression......

billybob

|2010-05-22 15:43:18

"The Mass Mind Control of a population can be defined as the sophisticated exercise of control by utilising the ability to keep people oppressed yet contented". The Tavistock Institute For Human Relations 1954.

The Hive

Visiting Denmark and living in Denmark are two totally different states of mind. To the visitor, it is indeed a green and pleasant land. Small and tidy with an apparently happy and welcoming populace. One overlooks the small things, the little irritants and peculiarities because one is on `vacation`.

It is when one lives permanently there that those same `small things`, `little irritants` and peculiarities start to beg questions. Why is it that the majority of Danes are all so alike? They dress alike, cut their hair alike, walk alike and talk alike. They use the same phrases time and again, eat the same food, enjoy the same leisure pursuits and live almost copycat lives, with little or no variation on the theme. I accept that this is a sweeping generalisation, but believe it to be valid all the same. There are of course exceptions and to those brave individuals, I give my respect and admiration. How or why they `slipped through the net` escapes me. But they are in the minority in every sense of the word, and this indeed adds to their splendour.

Every country and people have their national characteristic's but in Denmark it goes beyond this, because again and I stress here that I am referring to the majority of Danes, the population is phobically conformist and has a profound and deep mistrust of all things and influences of a foreign origin. For those who watched the US TV Series, `Star Trek The Next Generation`, the collectivist and robotic alien force known as the `Borg` bears comparison, albeit one which admittedly is rather extreme. (Quite a coincidence actually `Borg` being a Danish word). Did Gene Roddenberry know more than he was letting on?.

Danes display a `Hive` mentality, clinging to each other ever closer as the outside world closes in, rupturing their manufactured and protected isolation, and they hold tight to their Queen Bee, the Welfare State, with which they have an almost metaphysical attachment.

In this Essay, I will present an hypothesis based on my own research, observations and experiences both actual and circumstantial, and the research of others operating in the same arena which I believe will show that the intentional Mind Programming of the Danish people has been underway since the end of WWII.

The Model Totalitarians

The vindication of two of the twentieth century's great prophets of doom is at this time of global fracture perversely fascinating. We humans love to prove ourselves imperfect and flawed. The two pessimistic visionaries of the future of which I speak are of course George Orwell and Aldous Huxley. Their respective doom laden obituaries of the future have already passed into folklore; These two classic nightmares of what very likely awaits us, are Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four and Huxley's Brave New World.. Straddling the War years between 1939 and 1945 , these books have already shown that they were written with the apparent gift of prophecy. Both envisaged a world in which the advance of science produced a new type of ruling class with powers hitherto not possible. Both scripted the final subservience of human beings to a revolutionary hybrid of technological manipulators and political managers.

Both works predict a similar end, but it appears that the tenets of a Brave New World model have been applied here in Denmark where Huxley's novel is required reading on many adult education courses. Whereas Nineteen Eighty-Four which describes the logical conclusion of a Marxist Socialist dictatorship, or more correctly in the twenty first century a Communitarian one, has been adopted in those countries where the population is more likely to revolt and rebel against the encroachment of tyranny, such as in the US, France and the UK and some of the former eastern bloc countries now enmeshed in the EU Fascist State..

The New Totalitarians

There was no reason why the `New Totalitarianism` which had been chosen by the conspiratorial manipulators should resemble the old model of coercive government , which is demonstrably inefficient, and in an age of advanced technology unnecessary, particularly in a relatively controlled environment such as Denmark In his book, Huxley describes perfectly the `Architect's` goal. He writes;

" A really efficient totalitarian state would be the one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude".

For anyone not born and bred in this land, and in possession of a reasonable level of awareness, I am fairly sure they will recognise the parallels with Denmark as it is today.

So how was this state of acquiescence to be achieved? Huxley answered this question himself; " Brave New World depends on economic security; without it, the love of servitude is impossible." And in this, we find the foundations of the 'New Danish Model of Totalitarianism'. Denmark solved the problem of permanent security and abolished it in the main, along with the more obvious modes of social inequality, many years ago. She has been helped in this by a century and a half of relative peace and isolation and until very recently neutrality, and by being small and easily governed. Economic security by itself does not necessarily engender a love of servitude. Other conditions are a prerequisite; On the side of the controllers, a thorough understanding of the interaction between economics and power; and on the side of the controlled, an inert submission to authority and reverence for the expert. And in both cases, an aversion to individuality, an instinct for the collective, identification with and the a worship of the State, and a preference for government by bureaucrat. Denmark fulfils the above and them some. Danes do love their work!

Programming The Masses

At this point, it is useful to take a break from Huxley's vision of the future and take a brief look at Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four`. The Danes have demonstrated the power of that form of semantic manipulation Orwell called `Newspeak` i.e. the changing of words to mean something else. For example, whereas in English, to say to someone you believe them to be special or fine is very positive and complimentary. In Danish, both take on negative connotations. `Special` becomes peculiar and `Fine` implies "you think you're better than us" . In this way, human thought can be directed, and undesirable concepts eliminated, because the means of expressing them have been removed.

As researcher Michael Bailey wrote, "In this reality, language is the highway of how we communicate our thoughts. The gradual and intentional erosion of the vocabulary by those who wish to control us, removes the possibility of any undesirable ideas, as without the words to formulate those ideas, we cannot begin to even think them".

In the Danish language, freedom' does not yet, as it does in Orwell's `Ministry of Truth`, imply any form of 'slavery', but it does imply an element of 'submission' to the Collective or Hive, and effectively, a powerful word in the vocabulary of any opposition has therefore been effectively neutralized. Similarly, it is exceedingly difficult to speak in any but favourable terms of the State, because all the words in that field have become positively loaded in the same manner as `special` and `fine` have been negatively so.

So how does a Conspiratorial State Apparatus, programme a whole nation of people into a condition of accepted servitude and conformity? Through State Education, the merged State/Corporate Media, the advocating and promotion of immune system damaging vaccines and drugs such as anti depressants used to clinically adjust non conformist behaviour, along with the purposeful adding of poisons into the food and drink manufacturing process which, `dumb down` and disconnect people from their ability to think for themselves. Add to this the promotion of deviant sexual practices, pornography and erroneous ideologies such as feminism and you have yourselves a cocktail guarantied to bewilder and mesmerise a population into thinking exactly what you want them too and behaving accordingly.

As I have stated above, my contention is that Denmark and the Danes along with the other Nordic countries have been used as a Test Zone for the mass programming of whole populations. A laboratory experiment conducted to test and try out those systems to be introduced on a pan continental scale sometime in the near future. If one wanted to conduct such an experiment, certain conditions would be desirable. Like any worthwhile research site, a level of isolation and insulation is essential. The number of subject specimens needs to be large and varied enough to allow the project validity, but not so large that the possibility of losing control becomes a factor. The subject specimens themselves must have character traits found commonly from within and outside the `target zone`, yet be malleable enough to allow for sudden and unexpected changes to the programme, and as an essential, lacking completely any tendency to rebelliousness and non conformity.

Denmark certainly fulfils the criteria above and can be said to fall within the remit of the described possible scenario. It is located at the northern tip of Europe and has a tradition of relative isolationism. It has a small and compliant population due to many decades of imposed socialist dogma, and a history of bureaucratic government. It has along with Norway and Sweden been historically regarded as being on the very fringe of European Culture and therefore generally of little interest to the `mainstream of European life. But most perfectly, and up until very recently, it has been, and to a large extent still is, highly homogeneous.

Added to this was the presence of an `on site` local cultural phenomenon:

The Jantelov

In Denmark, the `plotters and planners ` realised that the foundations of Mass Mind Control had been in place for at least a century or so, in the form of the unwritten code known as the Jantelov. The Jante Law is the Nordic version of the `tall puppy` syndrome. It was named and described by the Danish author Aksel Sandemose in his novel `A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks` circa 1933, where he writes about the small fictional northern town of `Jante,` which is modelled upon and typical of all small Danish (and probably Norwegian and Swedish) communities at the beginning of the 20th century, where anonymity is impossible. There are ten basic tenets in this `law`, but they are all variations on this one single theme;
"Don't think you're anyone special or that you're better than us".

Those who do not keep to this 'law' and behave in accordance with it, are regarded with suspicion and hostility. Sandemose added an eleventh rule, which he formulated as a question; "Do you think I don't know anything about you"? This is the implied threat of censure, that others in the community will know something about those who dare to transgress, which can be later used against them. The rules are not only applied outwardly; Danes apply them equally and instinctively towards themselves. This means that the rules of this Jante Law create a state of arrested individuality where one does not wish nor dare to be either too high above or too far below others socially and economically.

With this rather pernicious and degrading subculture already in place, it was no coincidence and also somewhat convenient (for the conspirators that is) that the social engineers and their Illuminati backers and bankers decided upon Denmark and the other Nordic countries as the location of what can only be termed a `Mass Mind Control Experiment`.

Education

Education is one of the `Holy Cows` of the Danish Welfare system, and it took me a while to work out how and why a State would finance and support the continued educating of not only the very gifted far into their twenties, but as experience as a guest lecturer at Odense University in the 1990's showed me, the quite average also. Furthermore, the `push and shove` technique used to drag adult people back into education via the VUC programme similarly mystified me. What was it all about? Social equality? I don't think so.

The introduction of State-controlled education whether in Denmark or elsewhere in the `West` was not, nor is at the controlling level, intended to educate at all. The last thing a dictator wants is a truly educated, independent minded and intelligent population. It was, and is, the means to universally indoctrinate a life-long sense of reality which conforms to that model desired by the State and Hidden manipulators.

For their intended society, the Danish planners required a type of person that, thinking collectively and suppressing his individuality in favour of the group, is technologically orientated, and socially well adjusted. To this end, the educational system was profoundly altered during the 1950s and 1960s. From imparting knowledge, its aim was changed to that of guiding social behaviour.

As Alistair Crowley correctly intimated, if the State Education ruse was to be successful, it would need to be aimed at children of a young and suggestible age. In Brave New World written in the early 1930s. Huxley described a society of total control in which children were brought up in communal nurseries, conditioned from birth to accept what the State told them to do.

Like laboratory rats, children were electro-shocked if they did anything unacceptable to the programming. One scene has babies crawling towards pictures of flowers and birds only to be shocked because the State didn't want them to like nature. A form of this is going on right across society today as people are punished through various means for not acting in ways acceptable to the State and rewarded when they play the game as demanded.

The children in Brave New World are brainwashed even when they sleep with subliminal messages turning them into insatiable consumers to drive the engine of industrial production as indeed they are in only slightly more subtle ways today. At the heart of this child control was to remove children from the influence of their parents.

In the UK and increasingly mirrored elsewhere throughout the EU it is the plan to impose rules on the teaching of `social and group interaction skills` to three year olds. This is has the Orwellian/Huxleyan title of `The Early Years Foundation Stage`; This is the most overt and blatant example yet of the State removing a child at the earliest practicable age, from it's parents influence in order to indoctrinate it, whilst still at it's most impressionable stage of development.

In Denmark the routine `farming out of infants` by working parents has been practiced for the past three decades at least, in the form of the `Vuggestue` and Kindergarten's. Every morning across Denmark, thousands of parents unwittingly and voluntarily deliver up their `innocents` into the hands of the State. Wherever you look across the EU, this program of early indoctrination can be seen to either be in place, or about to be installed. Whereas for example in the UK, this `brainwashing for beginners` is still in it's literal infancy, in Denmark and the other Nordic lands, it is an accepted part of the `culture`.

Alistair Crowley, the Arch Satanist, Freemason and British Spy put it this way;
"Get them by eight, or it's too late". *

This is the point! The earlier the process starts the more effective and consolidated the effects will be. Enter "The Early Years Foundation Stage" and its teaching of `communication, language and literacy` to infants together with "knowledge and understanding of the world`. The play years of such children is vital to their balanced development because it awakens their right brain, the creative and artistic aspects of themselves. The `Right Brain` improvises and goes with the moment while the left brain wants structure and systems. All around us, we see structure and systems. Coincidence?

In his book, `The New Totalitarians` the author Roland Huntford, when writing about the Swedish educational model explained: 'Education is one of the most important agents for changing society. It has been integrated into the scheme for change, and its purpose is to turn out the correct kind of person for the new society. The new school rejects individuality, and teaches children to collaborate with others. It rejects competition, and teaches cooperation. Children are taught to work in groups. They solve problems together; not alone. The basic idea is that they are considered primarily as members of society, and individuality is discouraged. They want to produce people who are integrated into society. It aims to produce a well adjusted, good member of society. It teaches people to respect the consensus, and not sabotage it.. In the schools, the emphasis lies heavily on the collective."

In other words the aim is to produce Human Robots who look, think and act alike and in conformity to the required social norms, and refrain entirely from questioning and or challenging the regime. To this end, in Denmark, the programme has been entirely successful as any form of individuality or eccentricity is not only discouraged but becomes the object of a `silent threat` of ostracism by one's fellows. This causes a certain level of `brain drain` as the more individual and exceptional, unable to function as they would wish in Denmark find other lands in which they can do so. Worse still, when one considers the comprehensive social security net, is the surprising level of suicide, not only in Denmark, but throughout the northern lands. Not surprisingly, many of those resorting to this tragic form of escape are the very gifted, individualistic and eccentric.

In Denmark as well as most if not all other western nations we are witnessing a relentless centralisation of all aspects of society and State Education is no exception. This move towards the centre is considered vital where the indoctrination of children is concerned. He who thinks the same can be controlled the same. One blueprint, one mind, one reality.

100% Dansk - The Danish Mass Media as Agents of Conformity

In the post war years, the `thinkers` of the Frankfurt School, now established in America were `recruited by the OSS, forerunners of the CIA and organised by British Intelligence in connection with the Tavistock Institute Of Human Relations, the premier Illuminati `Front` for Global Mind Control both then and now. Theodore Adorno, ` a music professor, and senior member of the `Frankfurt School` was commissioned to research the effects of manipulated radio, television, popular music, movies and advertising on the US population. The findings of this project and the application of the results are primarily responsible for the massively damaged collective psyche of people living in western societies and the `mind washing` of children whose parents have abdicated responsibility for their raising to a conspiratorial state together with a `screen` in the corner of the living room.

If one takes one's impression of Denmark solely by viewing its mass media, the country appears to all intents and purposes to be run by a `tolerant dictatorship`. Press, Radio and TV show a remarkable similarity, as if guided by some Ministry of Propaganda. Criticism of the government there may be, but it is almost exclusively confined to administrative trivialities, and covered by the formula: 'First you decide on your goals, and then you discuss the means. There is no other discussion.' Almost never is there questioning of political fundamentals, or critical examination of the institutions of the State. All the media seem to be of one mind, advocating the same consensus, professing the same slogans, always, it seems, following the convolution of some party line. They give the impression of existing, not to question authority, but to avoid disturbing the public peace of mind; not to criticize, but to indoctrinate with a certain point of view.

In Denmark, blind belief in the state has allowed unrivalled possibilities in the `programming` of the population through sophisticated and some not so sophisticated means. One of the more obvious and least sophisticated of these is the universal and propagandised message that `Danish is Best` coupled with a peculiarly localised form of nationalism which is currently being exacerbated by the Danish People's Party and it's open hostility to all non Danes which now borders on the xenophobic.

Constantin - .

|2010-05-23 01:01:27

Very nice post billybob. Somewhat far-fetched in certain points and interpretations, but very nice nonetheless.

However, I think the conclusion is unjustly flattering to this society. To credit them with purpose is overrating both their mentality and ruthlessness. And my belief is that they possess neither of these.

No, I think it's just "a quiet little place to live, work and die" for them -no "sinister" controlling aspiration whatsoever.

Heidi aka MissFuzzy - Rest in peace, Philip Jones

|2010-05-24 09:10:43

Thank you for posting that, Billy Bob. It was a revelation to stumble across the late Philip Jones and discover another expat with much the same impression of the society here.

He died much too soon and is sorely missed.

immigrant - Middle Class position in Denmark

|2010-05-29 00:46:19

Denmark is trying to attract professionals. And all their efforts will fail as long as the middle class is exploited as a source of income to pay for the welfare state (and extended, unnecessary buorokracy).
Many of my friends (foreigners) are leaving Denmark before the "special tax" expires. According to them, they cannot afford living in Denmark without sacrificing their standard of living. And note if they are consciences they can choose any European country to live in. Despite of what the Danes believe ALL European countries provide for the people, who don't earn much. I could give countless concrete examples, having lived in a few countries and having relatives in many more.
These are not isolated opinions. I meet many foreigners, since my children attend an international school.

Nebbiolo - Re: Constantin

|2010-06-10 12:20:38

"To credit [the Danes] with purpose is overrating both their mentality and ruthlessness. And my belief is that they possess neither of these." (Constantin).

Yes, I think Constantin is correct. This is a passive society that has no end goal other than to maintain itself and to continue to believe its institutions and culture are somehow superior to anything else. All Danish institutions reflect this. In how many other countries do opposition politicians laugh and giggle together like they're all part of one happy little club?

There is no shadowy conspiracy or experiment afoot. It's just about mind-numbing, suburban conformity wrapped up in a Danish flag. If tomorrow is like today, and yesterday was like today, then things are fine.

neilco

|2010-06-10 15:11:28

I'm sure it's been said before, but I'm amazed that so many of you haters still live here if you really do mean your criticisms of your host country! I'd have more respect for you if you got off your butts and went and moved to any other country which fits your utopian vision. You're all real big people to be posting an online forum yet not acting on your strong opinions. Come on, get real!

PS - I'm British, pay a load of tax which I hate, don't like the weather and would love to see a Dane hold a door open for a stranger... But I knew all that before I moved here so I don't whine about it!

Y. B. Danish - New subscriber chiming in

|2010-06-12 00:19:10

Here is my truth:
My experience in Denmark has been so distasteful in terms of how I have been treated by "the system" that I feel sick just going through the process of thinking about how I could communicate it in a way that might be helpful to others, that might be part of a solution.
While the essay above is certainly interesting, and I can in fact see how the dots connect, I think the Danes should be held responsible for a system that fails American professionals )and possibly those of other countries, but certainly fails those who have no EU protection or benefits and who do not have the benefits (or trvails) associated with flytninger status. But I do not think the current situation is the result of an engineered plan. My father in law here was an integral part of the government and I have read many of his notes, and know him well. There was no plan.

The question is whether the Danes want to take responsibility for existing problems in their system as it relates to non-EUs and non-flytninger. As a society, they need to decide whether they want us here, or they don´t, and then they need to insist on a coherent plan that does not waiver with administrations but is fair, logical and comperhensible - by their own staff, and by the people they purport to be "assisting".

To those who have discussed here that the Danes don´t want to integrate - this is probably true. As I have seen the word used in Europe, the word is not used as we generally intend it in the U.S. . For most in the U.S., "integration" is thought of as 2 or more aspects coming together, voluntarily or with some pressure, to form a new aspect. Like your own two hands coming together to form one joined fist. We learn, once we´re here (sadly, not before) that Denmark, as an institution, has a different idea. But even that idea may be confusing to Danes, among others. In other words, we come here, and although sometimes we are spoken to in English, our understanding of what is intended by the use of key words such as "integration" is not the same as the meaning intended by the Danish adminsitrators or adminsitrations we have to deal with. In other words, we are not just speaking two different languages, we are speaking, when it comes to English, two different versions of the same language.

Now, a Dane might laugh at this. But an American who has given up his or her job and left imporatnt family and friends behind in order to keep his or her immediate family together, is probably not laughing.

Perhaps this is a good place to respond to those angry writes who say the common Dansk Folk Party chant "If you don´t like it, go home" . . . my response is first: NO, thank you. And my second response is: you can do better than taking that easy, cheap, quick way out of this difficult situation. Suggesting such an "answer" reflects more on the speaker, than on the subject matter.

When I met my husband, when HE WAS IN "MY" COUNTRY (for the record, I was never a nationalist before I came to DK), I shared my news with my father who replied "Well, DENMARK, that is the most civilized country in the world. Congratulations!" I have since heard Danish commentators on television say the same thing (Well, not the congratulations part 8^). IF this were to be true, then I would assume that Danes want to do better than this short, cheap, retort. And I will hold the majority to that.

I do not believe Denmark is the MOST civilized country in the world. But it could be, if the right people take the right actions to make it so.

Rather than going on, which I could do, I´ll stop here and say that, for starters we all need to be speaking the same language. As long as we cross-talk, using language that is ambiguous or culturally interpreted, we cannot win.

I´ll ad that I am grateful to the cphpost for making this dialogue possible. As far as the Lena Espersen and Danish Chamber of Commerce concept - they are missing their target. They need to get non-Danes HERE employed, by giving the same atssistance and proprity to us as they give to those who are "activated" and using the tax base that we, our spouses, and our families pay into .

One last thought to those angry people who cannot deal with this particular exercise of free speech, if you don´t want to treat us as equals, perhaps you also don´t want the protection that the U.S. Miliraty would provide in a heartbeat of Denmark came under any significant military threat?

Y. B. Danish - I grew up singing "this land is my land, this land

|2010-06-12 00:49:41

Readers may be interested in the following definition provided by a group in Ireland seeking to improve insitutional treatment of foreigners (again however - unnecessarily limiting the target group to non-highly-educated immigrants) http://ocw.unu.edu/programme-for-comparative-regional-integration-studies/introducing-regional-integration/different-forms-of-integration/

Here are their definitions:

"There are some key features of integration that will help to define the forms of action and change that are required:

•Integration is not assimilation. The host society should be prepared to accept inward migrants as equals and take action to facilitate access to resources and decision-making processes in parity with the national population. Migrants for their part should be willing to adapt to the lifestyle of the host society without requiring a loss of their own cultural identity.
•Integration is a long-term process starting from the time of arrival and often extending and concluded when the migrant becomes an active member of society from a legal, economic, social and cultural perspective. The length of this process will very and for some may extend beyond the first generation.
•Integration is multi-faceted and should seek to create conditions for participation in all aspects of the economic, social, cultural, civil and political life of the country. It should also bestow a sense of belonging and membership in the host society. Crucially Nasc believes that integration should begin at the point of arrival. This means that Nasc disagrees with current government funding initiatives in relation to integration, which refer to “legally resident migrants” and exclude asylum seekers. Integration measures should include people in the Asylum system. By point of arrival we also mean “birth” in Ireland. Integration is not just about people “coming in”, it is also about people who are already here and society is a mixture of all those people together."

As I share in the experience of many others who are in Denmark for family reasons, and have continued over almost five years to experience insitutional isolation and discrimination in the work place (yes, my career and education are ON the job scheme list, but I can´t get a job here . . . which leads me to believe that there is an underlying movement by the largely male-dominated commercial sector (with the cooperation of women) . . . that seeks to use these so-called "prorgams" at taxpayer expense to recruit young white men. But that aside, I see three places where action can be taken:
1) bombardement of the U.S. Embassey with letters describing our experiences and at least enlightening the administration that the constitutional protections (see the Amendments) afforded to all people in the U.S. (think equal opportunity, equal protection of the laws, non-discrimination (some not permitted by law in DK, but most not enforced in DK either), 2) sending copies of these letters to a particular set of Danish lawmakers, and 3) a carefully drafted on-line petition that can be shared in its final form with the media and lawmakers here and abroad.

Y. B. Danish - To Neilco

|2010-06-12 15:22:36

You wrote:
" I'm sure it's been said before, but I'm amazed that so many of you haters still live here if you really do mean your criticisms of your host country! I'd have more respect for you if you got off your butts and went and moved to any other country which fits your utopian vision. You're all real big people to be posting an online forum yet not acting on your strong opinions. Come on, get real!

PS - I'm British, pay a load of tax which I hate, don't like the weather and would love to see a Dane hold a door open for a stranger... But I knew all that before I moved here so I don't whine about it!"

What, exactly, do you know about what the people who are posting their experiences and observations here have done to deal with their/our situations? Do you realize that by writing here they/we are often, in fact, trying to improve the situation by sharing information that may otherwise not be known to our "host" country? You also fail to recognize that for many people, the option of living in the UK or "going back" to the U.S. does not exist in real terms. Perhaps many of us would if we could. For me, returning to the U.S. would be highly problematic. We sold our house and spent the money we earned here in DK. My husband would have to leave his current position with the danish branch of an international company and try to get a new position with the U.S. branch of the same country, at age 55 (be realistic - how likely is that?) His father, who lives in a plejehjem would have no visitors and no advocats to ensure he is properly cared for - because we are all he has, and we moved him to a plejehjem within 3 km of our home. . .. I have lost valuable years in my profession while trying to "integrate" in DK and at the same time have visibly aged, thereby making me less marketable "over there". Note also that those of us whose work requires high quality business or creative or legal English, often lose skills while we undertake to learn Danish to the level asked of us, or at which we have set our standard. Your declaration makes it sound easy to just go back in time. It is not even possible to do so, let alone easy. Especially when so much has changed in the world over the last several years. . . . .

What is wrong, exactly, with expressing which of our hopes have been dashed, what treatments seem inconsistent with the way Danes portray themselves to the rest of the world (and in that respect have been misleading . . . ) and with suggesting changes that could help those Danes who seek to have a harmonious country with less violence, more growth, true quality of daily life . . . .. to achieve their goals?
and Perhaps rather than

I am not suggesting that anyone who writes here bemoaning all Danes as though they are are toxic. has it right either. I am not suggesting that the U.S. is without its problems. I am only saying here that I read your comment and it was a good example of a class of responses that are writing that is short-sighted and not helpful to the process or discussion.

Y. B. Danish - TO: mtafiti - Its got to be Copenhagen

|2010-06-12 17:26:09

The significance of those 10 years is everything. People who have come over in the last five years have had DRAMATICALLY different experiences from yours. The government changed, the laws changed, and the application of those laws has been problematic to say the least. As one of my Danish teachers explained, the Denmark my husband left in 2000 is not the same Denmark that he came back to and which I moved to. The difference, it seems to me, is in the attitude - as implemented by governmental employees and codified by laws and "vejledninger". In short, the Danes in power and under power via employment want "others" to become Danish nationalist, but not Danish. You will not hear people like yourself described as "American Danes" or British Danes etc. By comparison, i met a woman at Kastrup who was from Sweden, but when asked her nationality, she said she was a Swedish American. The point is the Danes in power have been trying to COMPEL and COERCE people into becoming Danish Nationalist but have not been giving them a reason to be so voluntarilly. When one has a homeland that he or she is not fleeing (and so is more appreciative of anything short of the tyrannical authorities they fled - especially when they are often spoon-fed once in Denmark and accorded all kinds of understanding and sympathy), it is easy to resent the way one has been treated in these more recent years when so many expected quite the opposite from this "civilized" country.

It is now a problem of branding. When an entity brans itself as one way and fails to live up to the brand, it loses credibility.

Many Danes I´ve spoken with say, literally, they are "embarrassed" by the way immigrants are treated here. But I have yet to learn of any of them seeking to effect change.

Instead, what I see is the influence of corporations (often multi-national corporations) getting more funding to "promote" Denmark (which, although the taxes are paid by us all around the country, is interpretted as meaning Copenhagen only=, or, as in this case, getting Lena to agree that there is a reason for spending 4,5 m. kroner to induce more professionals to come here. Hey, I have an idea, send that money down to the folks on Ærø. I hear they have unemployed attorneys, psychiatrists, and archeologists who need work. Then you will be investing in your own infrastructure, helping the outlying areas that need help, will have an appearance of being the "civilized" nation, and will reduce at least one instance of dishonesty (i.e. that there is an actual need for professionals from outside the country) and thereby start a process of recovering some of the credibility lost ain recent years.

Y. B. Danish - I Think this was referenced above

|2010-06-12 23:26:06

See
http://righteousalliance.blogspot.com/2009/07/denmark-model-matrix-for-brave-new.html

mig selv

|2010-06-13 15:25:06

http://righteousalliance.blogspot.com/2009/07/denmark-model-matrix-for-brave-new.html

They're the Borg! No, it's Brave New World! No, wait: the Matrix!

It's a more tiresome cliché than the "if you don't like it, go home."

---

"if you don´t want to treat us as equals, perhaps you also don´t want the protection that the U.S. Miliraty would provide in a heartbeat of Denmark came under any significant military threat?"

Seriously. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Y. B. Danish - response to "mig selv"

|2010-06-13 23:13:01

You wrote "It's a more tiresome cliché than the "if you don't like it, go home."

If that were true, I would have heard it on one of the many many occasions I was in Denmark before moving here. So, I do not agree. But perhaps you are in a position to hear it more often than tourists? I would also guess that most of the people who have written about their negative experiences on this discussion board had not heard them these ideas before moving here.

As for me, I was not the person who made the reference to the claims at the link I posted. I posted it because I was researching what someone else had written about and added it as a reference to that earlier discussion.

If you had read what I wrote, you would have read that I clearly said mu own opinion as follows: "My father in law here was an integral part of the government and I have read many of his notes, and know him well. There was no plan.` So you are off the point by directing this to me.

Lastly, you did not address the subtance of the question you quoted (where I asked whether a participant who said that foreign professionals who are expressing their concerns here should "go home"), instead you suggested I should feel embarrased.

I don´t.

But on that subject what, exactly, is your goal in trying to make me think I should feel embarrassed? It certainly isn´t a problem-solving approach. Or one seeking to learn through discourse. It seems, instead, to be an effort at diverting the discussion from facts you don´t want to consider.

But take NATO and the worlds dependence on the U.S. for military might (personally, I would prefer that were not the case - but given that it is . . . I mentioned it). So take that off the table and talk about fairness. And equality.

I am sure many readers would be interested in your thoughts about whether foreign professionals should be treated fairly, equally, and with the same respect that Danes are given in the foreigners lands . . . or not. That is really what this is about, isn´t it?

gulrezdoc - Goodbye

|2010-06-14 01:37:37

I am a doctor. After spending a year here, I think it is time for me to leave.

It is a beautiful country, I met friendly and nice Danes.

Sure there are problems here, I am still waiting for the visa papers for my family to be processed (more than a year now), how many documents do they want?

I think I can find a job anywhere else in the world.

Good bye Denmark.

mig selv

|2010-06-14 09:56:48

Chuckle. I have no "goal" except to point out that the last thing you should bring to the discussion is an arrogant sense of entitlement.

---

As for the link, I don't care if they're your words or not. It's still a tiresome cliché, though after some reflection, I will concede that the "if you don't like it, go home" line is indeed more annoying.

Y. B. Danish - til "mig selv" igen

|2010-06-14 13:04:04

Your name-calling is still a short cut.

But the words you use are telling. Many from the U.S. AND abroad, have expectations and understand "what is right" based on their own cultures, and on their/our experiences at least. You apparently think that one who expresses dissatisfaction with the status quo is worthy of being labelled arrogant and entitled. That, in my opinion, and giving you the benefit of the doubt, is an interpretation influenced by your own expectations, experiences, culture and willingness to consider, or not, that Denmark could be better than it is.
This is why my first comment related to the manner of communication used in the multi-cultural context.
Whether name-calling is an appropriate response, I addressed above. It is cheating and not giving the subject matter its due, while still chiming in. This doesn´t seem to be cultural, or if it is; it happens across many cultures. I think it has more to do with laziness, defensiveness, and an unwillingness to think openly AND critically with a view toward problem-solving.
With respect to your perception of foreign (or was it simply my personal) arrogance though, I do think there are cultural expectations and interpretations at play. Consider this example of differences: On the third day of my last course in Danish, before the big test, I was told that the dialogue part of the test would be judged on how the assigned dialogue partner, and I, argue for the positions we were assigned. He missed the last class, while I attended. In that class, I learned that what the instructor meant was not "argue" as it was understood by both of us, but that we would be judged on how we "discuss" our positions and reach a conclusion. Then I was given a sheet that had all kinds of sentences used in Danish "argument." They involved first conceding that the other person is right (f.eks. "det har du ret i" el. "det kan godt være . . ") and THEN saying ("men . . .) that what one´s own position was the better one. After speaking with my partner before our test, I explained what I found out and he changed his approach (which, when we had practiced, had been rather aggressive – with him just bashing every reference to my position and not allowing me to even speak). Thankfully, he got the idea and did not use his time in dialogue trying to demonstrate how wrong my position was. This method of dialoguing is part of the Danish culture. We were, in fact, being tested on it by the government through its representatives.
Now, some Danes will say this is a good method. Others will say it is one good method, among several. And others will say it is the ONLY method. The latter group would probably conclude that anyone using a different method, is wrong, even if it reaches the same, or a better result.
But when people, including foreign professionals, come to Denmark, they do not come with Danish cultural behaviors. It just isn´t the case and it never will be. Similarly, Danes to not ARRIVE in other countries with the cultural experiences, methods etc. of those cultures. The wise business person will learn what they can about the other culture before coming though. Not for the purpose of BECOMING "of" the other culture, but, usually for the purpose of being able to succeed in their business dealings, and, possibly, to succeed in life in the foreign culture.
To get back to the point of the article and proposed spending my Lena Espersen, the question from a taxpayer point of view is: is it going to be a worthwhile expenditure at a time when people (mostly Danes) will be losing government jobs due to spending cuts, workers who lose their jobs may have new limits placed on their "dagpenge", and families will lose support as well? From a practical point of view, the previous question needs to be answered with all possible information in view. And here, foreigners are adding to the information that Lena E. can and should consider.
Yes, we would all like our lives to be better here. But it is significant, in the context of the proposed spending, that many foreign, educated, people living in Denmark do not see additional spending of this sort to be the answer.
The logical question with respect to her proporal then arises: what IS the answer? What WILL attract foreign workers to DK? Or what ARE the answers?
The information is out there (and in here) (see also a survey done on foreigners living in DK and how they rated certain life factors as significant to their decision, and how they then rated those factors in terms of satisfactions –published in the last year in Børsen).
The real question is whether you Mig Selv, Lena E., or any other Danes, really want to understand, or not.
Finally, most Americans, nay, most people from most nations, know that their countries are flawed and in need of improvement. What of the Danes and Denmark? This is a question BTW, not a statement.

tomnashdk

|2010-06-14 14:12:21

The vicious circle continues ad nauseum...

Danes: These foreigners won't come and help us with our economy, or if they do come they will not stay!

Foreigners: Denmark treats us like unwelcome second-class citizens on so many levels.

Danes: Well, if you don't like it here, go home!

Foreigners: OK, I will go home (early.) DK is nothing special.

Danes: These foreigners won't come and help us with our economy, or if they do come they will not stay!
.
.
.
The rest is nothing but arguing about the details of specific instances. (yawn)

mig selv

|2010-06-14 15:51:32

"You apparently think that one who expresses dissatisfaction with the status quo is worthy of being labelled arrogant and entitled."

Another chuckle. Not at all, if they can do so without resulting to, "Well, I'll just take my F-16s and go home."

"The real question is whether you Mig Selv, Lena E., or any other Danes, really want to understand, or not."

I'm American, not Danish.

mig selv

|2010-06-14 15:59:43

A contrary, but equally hyperbolic rewrite:

Danes: Foreign researchers would help our high-tech industry.

Foreigners: Why won't Denmark cater to my every need?

Danes: Um...

Foreigners: OK, I will go home (early.) DK is nothing special.

Osv.

But either way, Tom, you're right about the outcome.

tomnashdk

|2010-06-14 20:30:31

mig selv, yes there is certainly an element of truth in your version, but I it might be good for all to remember that DK is attempting to sell itself, and it is the foreigners who are expected to buy. DK and Danes are not known for good customer service under even the best of circumstances.

"The customer is always right." is an adage that DK needs to learn in this case.

Y. B. Danish - response to mig selv again

|2010-06-14 21:49:16

That´s fine that you´re American.

The question, though, remains.

Y. B. Danish - PENSION INFO

|2010-06-18 18:10:39

I believe one or more people wrote about paying into the Danish pension fund as being a significant factor in deciding whether to come and/or stay in Denmark. To the extent that one pays 7.5-8% of his or her salary as a tax that goes toward pensions, I absolutely agree that it is, literally, taxation without representation - something that the people of Northeastern America rejected violently when imposed by England many years ago. Mor eimportant, to me, is that, IF I can earn that money and if the goal is to ensure I have reserves in the form of a pension when the time comes, that money should be applied toward a source that will make such provision. IF I cannot take full advantage of the pension, or if I cannot take advantage at all, the money should be returned to me. Otherwise, it is in my view a misappropriation of my funds. If done to a corporation, you could be sure that the corporation wouldn´t stand for it. Given that I am a living, breathing human, I see no reason for reacting any differently.

But so we can compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, I am attaching a couple of websites that may help. The first two are produced by ÆdreSagen - the first being in danish and the second being a copy in English. The second is a link to Borger.dk, in Danish. I have google translate as part of my toolbar and found the language used at borger.dk translated comprehensibly this way. FYI.
http://www.aeldresagen.dk/Frivillige/videnogvaerktoejer/bibliotek/Litteratur/Documents/Frivilligt%20socialt%20arbejde/Dansk.pdf

http://www.aeldresagen.dk/Frivillige/videnogvaerktoejer/bibliotek/Litteratur/Documents/Frivilligt%20socialt%20arbejde/Engelsk.pdf

https://www.borger.dk/Emner/pension-og-efterloen/typer-af-pension/folkepension-foertidspension-mm/tillaeg-og-generelle-betingelser-for-pension/Sider/generelle-betingelser-for-pension.aspx

The latter one may have a question mark at the end - it is not clear if that´s part of the string or not.
God weekend til alle.

maxminai - All for Love . . .

|2010-06-24 16:23:26

Ok... maybe not all but a majority of the people currently living/working in and cribbing about Denmark are not here because they invested in a good education in the US/UK/Oz so that one day they could get a job in Grand Denmark! They're here because their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend is Danish and despite numerous discussions/arguments/experiments, being in Denmark is the eventuality which has resulted.

So . . . Look at it this way, you are in Denmark all because of Love, and the love of your life makes it worth it, so love on and live on! :-)

neileverett - A word about our little garden

|2010-07-07 04:03:59

Living in Denmark as an expat is tough and very demanding. I've been here nearly four years now. I have read many of the comments here and i can actually appreciate many of them. Before I give mine I'd like to draw attention to the fact that the population of DK is about 5 million. So on grounds of mathematics I find it easy to understand why the taxes are so very high. Yes in my experience the health service is not so good and most Danes have health insurance of some form, you will get help and be seen but I wouldn't call it a warm system. In terms of Danes and their isolationism, it is not a country where you will ever be 100% accepted but someone please tell me where is? The central issue and I defy anyone to put it any other way, is.....you've got to learn the language. AND I don't mean make a show of learning it or learn enough to pass yourself. If you are serious about having a real life in DK you gotta learn it fluently, and it is considered to be one of the most difficult languages on earth. My opinion on the danes' need for us to integrate is that they are holding so tight to their identity as a tiny little country that if they were to relax their stance on language and nationalism, in a generation they would be diluted to the point of nothing. So in answer, YES, the taxes are ridiculous, but the wages are higher. Not proportionally so though. YES, there is Jante Law, but most Danes can't remember the exact wording of it. YES, there is a tremendous amount of propaganda which makes Danes feel that they are the worlds center. The endless flag flying and royalism is to a foreigner rather odd. YES the health system is not the best but it does work- if begrudgingly. My only advice to expats moving to DK or lovers and partners moving back to DK to be with a spouse is.....think very, very carefully about it. Learn the language or forget it. Learn the language well, pay your taxes and don't even bother with trying to
integrate. Integration is just another form of propaganda which alienates us even further. I mean, who the hell wants dinner at 7pm sharp anyhow. Can't we have a leisurely dinner over a few hours...It's a tiny, tiny little
country....let me put it this way its smaller than London. Be careful in your choice.

Adam - Dane In Germany

|2010-07-07 15:07:16

I think that the negative comments here must be about Germany instead of Denmark....except for the tax stuff. You know that you will get screwed by taxes in Denmark, but in Germany they screw you secretly with surprise bills. Denmarks a bit more expensive than Germany, but worth it. As far as the difference in the people: Germans come off to me as the Scandinavias poor country cousins (i.e, wanna-be Scandinavians). When they try to duplicate their Northern neighbors, I just laugh. Maybe if they wish hard enough, the tooth-fairy might turn the Germans into real Northern Europeans or at least make non-Germans really care about Germany.

LAgirl - TO MAS - LeFiffre - Difficult personal decision

|2010-07-29 15:01:02

I read that you are in Chile and thinking coming to DK, well DON'T DO IT just stay there. I'm Chilean married to a Dane, I have been here for to long 2 1/2 years. During this time I studied danish and I have been trying unsuccessfully to get a job (I'am business administrator with master studies in Germany), I have had two interviews in all this time, in one occasion almost being there, but left out for another candidate that had more experience in Denmark. In this years i have met many people, all foreigns married to Danes, all of them in the same situation, because what is important here is if you speak or not the language or another reason they invent, and not the ideas and experience you have. So if you want like me, to loose your career and struggle every day trying to survive with just one salary, so go ahead, otherwise stay in Chile. I have lived in many countries, US, Spain, Germany, China and never, never faced such situation like here. Each day I remember my life in Chile, and even with all the problems there, I used to live in Las Condes, own a nice new car, enjoying nice happy hours with my friends...here I live in a neighborhood with many social depending neighbors, no nanny, an old VW from 92, if 500 DKK are left at the end of the month is a miracle, and all this with a 2 years kid that attends day care and we have to pay 3000 DKK each month, all a luxury!
Chile is not perfect, but God! how well we live there!! and most important how well we treat the foreigns!, even the Danes!!! we give employments to them even when they don't speak perfect the language or don't do it...by this time I already contacted my "network" in Chile and a headhunter and I'm just waiting for a positive answer to come back home ASAP, that includes my loved danish husband...

James4 - Beating about the bush

|2010-08-14 22:14:27

The idiom 'beating about the bush' comes to mind. However, the abolition of the Jante Law could solve the issue. For how will the fettered, otherwise, be able to attract the unfettered?

Buffysboy

|2010-08-19 20:15:00

It may be hard to believe but it is my 11th year in this country and I have felt ostracized the entire time I am here. I would have fled long ago if I could afford an education elsewhere, but now that my master degree is coming to an end I am counting the days when I rid myself from this place. So long Denmark, and thanks for all the fish, I hope I never see you again.

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